Window Debate

Hi sabot...the craziest thing is...murat was investigated by those we also think could hold some info about Madeleine's abduction e.g... gonc!!

But what was the point in questioning him anyway??Murat already knew what to say because he already had am insight into the events that unfolded that night.Which is probably why he states he was in bed at 10 pm etc.Because he knew dam well that was the time she was discovered missing.

He weren't in bed though, i believe he was outside the ocean club(as seen by witnesses)taking mental notes on what was going on around him.I think that the phone calles he made to malinka and michaela were about Madeleine to.

Pedro,agree with your post there.Gonc murat and the rest of them...there's something crazy going on here.

Gonc gets to run an investigation even though hes under investigation for corruptness and concealing info on another child abduction case??Grrrr no wonder murats as confident as can be


Reminds me or carloa silvino when he said out of his own mouth...''they cant touch me there are too many big people involved in this''

Im getting really annoyed and frustrated with this case lately again.I went through a similar frustration months ago and had to take time out of reading so much on it.It annoys me that they are holding back these children and that they think they have the god dam given right to take another persons child and do with it what the hell they choose to do,then cover their twisted ways by accusing the heart broken family of killing them.It plays havoc with my heart,i feel so much for the mccanns.If this was my little girl and i was being accused i would be sooo frustrated i think even the mental torture is enough to bring you to breakdown.Imagine being battered the way lenor was.

How much can the human mind take before it finally cracks?When someone you love,your defenseless little child is not skipping and dancing about you laughing and singing anymore, but instead in the hands of god knows what.You cannot hold them see them hear them or touch them anymore.You dont know if they are afraid,if they are being looked after,If they are happy,if they are crying for you...or if their tiny little bodies are led dead somewhere in a shallow grave.. unmarked and throw away like a piece of garbage.The thought of it makes my gut turn over.I have to snap myself out of those thoughts because i end up shredding tear when i imagine myself in their position.My child means the world to me,shes my little princess,i love her beyond words and no one as the rights to take that away from any parent.

No one as the rights take anyone,a child or adult away from those who love and care for them.It makes me sick.

Pedro,agree with your post there.Gonc murat and the rest of them...there's something crazy going on here.

No not crazy Clairesy, sinister!

I don't actually believe that Robert Murat had anything to do with this., and if he was involved why would he seek to involve third parties, and consequentally put himself in the frame?
It would have been better for him to want suspicion focused on The McCanns.

As it happens Murat was right. But by then it seems that Inspector Varanda had already ruled out the possibility of a stranger being responsible.

I believe that they made Robert Murat an Arguido to stop him spreading his suspicions of Stranger Abduction.

Regarding the way Madeleine was taken away from the apartment, I remain convinced the window was opened for a reason, Kate believes this and so do I.
I think it possibly went something like this;

The abductors came in with with a key through the front door or through the rear patio doors, they immediately opened the bedroom window in case they needed to escape quickly if someone returned, they obviously could not go back through the apartment they would get caught.

My main reason for believing that Madeleine was carried away through the streets where JT saw her and then later the Smiths was because Gerry and Jes unexpectedly stood in the road where a car/van was parked.

I actually think that they were going to go down the patio steps and straight into a waiting car, this could not happen because Gerry stood talking to Jes and then JT appeared. I think the car/van and driver were parked in that road where Jes and Gerry stood and they could not move, if they did move this would have attracted attention to them and Gerry, Jes of JT may have remembered them and the make and colour of the car/van.

I think the abductor/s walked off with Madeleine this way because they had no choice, they had to, they waited somewhere and probably received a phone call as to where to meet to be picked up. This was the delay in JT seeing them and the Smiths seeing them.
I think there were three, one in the car/van, the other in the apartment and one lookout outside, they either passed Madeleine through the window or went out through the front door. The window plays an integral part in this, it was always opened for a reason 1) for a quick escape if someone returned 2) for the lookout to converse with the person inside without the use of mobile phones. 3) ?? For passing Madeleine through.

I agree with you Rosiepops, which takes us possibly to the parking lot Miguel told.

Hi Pedro

Yes I see what you are saying and what Miguel meant, but why did the dogs lose the scent after the car park?
Pedro, where is the little supermarket? Is it the way this man walked? Because I remember reading that the scent was detected to this supermarket and then it apparently it vanished.

The GNR dogs lose the scent because, probably the car "took off" the parking lot, about the supermarket, I wonder if it was after the resort or before the resort, or between the resort and the parking lot. I wonder if Maria or any of our friends here can answer that.

I could not explain the Smith sighting......it may have been another foreigner with his child who paid no heed to missing Madeleine.

I have always thought that because the front door is stepped back and kind of hidden...this was the way the abductor went in and out. There are bushes and trees by the car park......someone could easily have dodged back in there if someone came unexpectedly.I think that if the window was opened it would have been for a quick exit... just in case. I really beleive JT saw the man carry Madeleine...that road was quite badly lit...I think a car was parked just beyond Murats and hey ho.........straight out of PDL on that road...which leads straight to the main highway and from there......anywhere....Interior Algarve ....many little quiet coves or Spain in just over a couple of hours.

Cat, I have often wondered about the Smith sighting to be honest and the way he suddenly piped up that he thought the man he saw may have been Gerry because of the way he carried his son down the plane steps, really made me wonder about him, because that has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. I often wondered if he had been put up to saying that and there is mention of Amaral being in contact with Smith too! If Amaral was in contact with him, I find that very odd, as he never once spoke to Kate and Gerry! Incidentally, Goncalo Amaral speaks much better English than people may think and I know this for a fact, so this is another lie of Amaral's. We know he lied about this because when Goncalo Amaral was caught by the BBC TV when he was asked about the McCanns and Amaral said "**** the McCanns" on national TV which was then beamed everywhere and reported in all the British and the Portuguese press, he was caught off guard and he understood the reporter when he spoke to him in rapid English and then he answered in English, so Amaral is a liar he can speak and understand English!

Back to the car park, I still keep thinking that the plan started to go wrong when Gerry and Jez stood chatting in the road, I think the car or van may possibly have been parked in the street where they stood talking, complete with driver, I think the car/van was going to drive to the bottom of those patio steps, abductor comes down, in the car and away but in the end the car could not move because if it did then it would probably have definitely been seen, this could be why the abductor walked off with Madeleine.

Rosiepops wrote:Cat, I have often wondered about the Smith sighting to be honest and the way he suddenly piped up that he thought the man he saw may have been Gerry because of the way he carried his son down the plane steps, really made me wonder about him, because that has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. I often wondered if he had been put up to saying that and there is mention of Amaral being in contact with Smith too! If Amaral was in contact with him, I find that very odd, as he never once spoke to Kate and Gerry! Incidentally, Goncalo Amaral speaks much better English than people may think and I know this for a fact, so this is another lie of Amaral's. We know he lied about this because when Goncalo Amaral was caught by the BBC TV when he was asked about the McCanns and Amaral said "**** the McCanns" on national TV which was then beamed everywhere and reported in all the British and the Portuguese press, he was caught off guard and he understood the reporter when he spoke to him in rapid English and then he answered in English, so Amaral is a liar he can speak and understand English!

Back to the car park, I still keep thinking that the plan started to go wrong when Gerry and Jez stood chatting in the road, I think the car or van may possibly have been parked in the street where they stood talking, complete with driver, I think the car/van was going to drive to the bottom of those patio steps, abductor comes down, in the car and away but in the end the car could not move because if it did then it would probably have definitely been seen, this could be why the abductor walked off with Madeleine.

The road going to to the Tapas Bar was better lit than the road along the top.....I think that there was less chance of being seen along that top road than the Tapas OC road........Also that top road......leads you straight out of the village via a non built up area......Very quiet at night.

Ref Smith's sighting...Its always puzzled me that one...........Why did none of his family members back him up....or indeed become involved?....He was in PDL he MUST have noticed all the fuss going on..So why wait to report it? And as for the how he walked off the plane s###...........Bloody nonsense ! How many ways is there to carry a sleeping child coming off a plane...GGRRR

If they PJ thought what that family had to tell about what they've seen that night was that important they should go back to Portugal to make a statement, why didn't the PJ arrange for an e-fit back in May?
Why did they keep it a secret until September, when mr Smith thought the man he's seen was Gerry? Why was it leaked after that?

It's always seemed to me strange to say that the way Gerry held the sleeping child as he came off the plane made Smith think he resembled the man he'd seen near the beach. Bizarre! There was nothing at all unique about it. As you say, there are only a very limited number of ways of carrying a sleeping child.

It's disingenuous of anyone to place any significance on Smith's statement about the supposed resemblance between the two men. Gerry was seen by a number of witnesses at the tapas bar at the time the Smiths are supposed to have seen the man with the child near the beach. Amaral must know that very well.

Another bizarre thing; why were there not further interviews with the Smiths? Why did the Portuguese police not re-interview them? They seem to have almost disappeared into thin air.

Of course you're right it couldn't have been Gerry and there's only a few ways to carry a child, Maria T.
They didn't even bother to interview the whole family. Mrs Smith for instance, never made a statement.

Why did they keep it a secret until September, when mr Smith thought the man he's seen was Gerry? Why was it leaked after that?

Cath, the PJ had no use for this information prior to that. To acknowledge this sighting is to acknowledge the abduction occurred. After Mr Smith said it was Gerry, then it became useful to the PJ because it 'proved' that it was not an abduction but the parents committed the crime.

The fact that there were mutliple witness statements putting Gerry at the Tapas bar, was a problem. So doubt had to be placed on the McCanns' friends. Pity thought that there were other unrelated people that placed Gerry at the Tapas bar.

Its a pity that the PJ didnt put as much effort into searching for Madeleine as they did into conducting a propaganda campaing.

Maria Theresa

No further interviews with the Smith's because any further interviews would have proved that Mr Smith was mistaken, particularly when the rest of his family didnt agree with him, and I include his wife, as she wouldnt make a further statement.

Since there was evidence (statements) that proved that Gerry was not the man the Smith's seen, the Smith's sighting was of no value except as propaganda. Any further interviews would have removed its use as propaganda.

dianeh wrote:

Why did they keep it a secret until September, when mr Smith thought the man he's seen was Gerry? Why was it leaked after that?

Cath, the PJ had no use for this information prior to that. To acknowledge this sighting is to acknowledge the abduction occurred. After Mr Smith said it was Gerry, then it became useful to the PJ because it 'proved' that it was not an abduction but the parents committed the crime.

The fact that there were mutliple witness statements putting Gerry at the Tapas bar, was a problem. So doubt had to be placed on the McCanns' friends. Pity thought that there were other unrelated people that placed Gerry at the Tapas bar.

Its a pity that the PJ didnt put as much effort into searching for Madeleine as they did into conducting a propaganda campaing.

I agree Dianeh.....

Exactly. The PJ didn't want to know about The Smith Sighting because it suggested an abduction. Positive proof of their lack of desire to follow up an abduction.

Amaral wanted them back in Portugal in September because it followed his agenda.

Unfortunately he didn't understand about Rogatory Interviews. The application details have to be absolutely correct, which is why the other interviews were delayed. This rule is to protect the investigation, and not to protect suspects or witnesses.

The Portuguese couldn't even get that one right.

A lot of very good points made.

Smith's comments became nothing more than propaganda, and totally unconvincing. That's why I find it impossible to believe that Amaral really believes what he says in his book.

Agreed about the rogatory interviews. Correct protocol has to be followed.

Rosie wrote:This is the window, why does Moita Flores think a child could not be passed through this window, it is plenty big enough.

I came across this and only because the story was removed from the Daily Express, and only for that reason, I put the Moita Flores dirt here, so we can all read what Moita Flores thought:


3 MINUTES TO DUMP HER BODY

Saturday October 20,2007
By David Pilditch, in Praia da Luz

Crime experts revealed yesterday that it would have taken less than three minutes to hide Madeleine McCann’s body.

The specialists insisted that was all the time it would have taken for a suspect to remove her from her family’s holiday apartment and return to the resort.

The crimebusters concluded that Madeleine’s parents – or any member of their holiday party – could have disposed of her body without raising suspicion.

The independent Portuguese team carried out their own reconstruction of events the night that Madeleine vanished. They found it was “highly unlikely” she could have been taken from the apartment at the Ocean Club resort by an abductor on foot because it would have attracted too much attention.

Using a special computer programme, the experts found it would have taken less than 30 seconds to reach the church in Praia da Luz where a “trail of death” leading from the apartment is said to have ended.

British sniffer dogs picked up the scent of a corpse, leading to the theory that Madeleine’s body could have been dumped in the sea close to the church or hidden nearby.

Examining the two most likely routes, the experts concluded it would have taken “less than three minutes” to dispose of Madeleine’s corpse using a car driven at 20mph.

It is one of the principal lines of inquiry which Portuguese police have followed since Madeleine vanished on May 3.

Police believe Madeleine was killed in an accident in the apartment and are convinced her parents, Kate and Gerry, played a part in her death.

The new findings were revealed in a special investigation for a Portuguese TV programme.

Former police inspector Fransisco Moita Flores said: “There are so many contradictory theories, but she was taken, dead or alive, according to the dogs, down to the church.

“This would have to have been done by car. There is a piece of land behind the church and behind that is the sea.

“A car could take you from the apartment to the sea in 30 seconds, whichever route was used.

Let’s say something went wrong, we have about 40 seconds. If you add two minutes to dispose of the body by sea – that’s little more than two and a half minutes at the most. It would take just another 30 seconds to return to the resort.

Madeleine disappeared while the McCanns and seven holiday friends were dining at the resort.

Members of the party told police they were taking it in turns to check on their children during the meal.

Mr Flores added: “That is more than enough time for any member of the group that left the table during that meal to be considered a suspect.

“Many of the group, according to what we’re told, was absent from that table – every one of them for more than three minutes.”

Mr Flores said it would have been impossible for a suspect to carry off Madeleine without being seen.

He said: “The little girl was removed and taken elsewhere – whether alive by an abductor or dead after an accident.

“In either case, to leave the apartment there are a lot of overlooking holiday properties.

“The risk to somebody carrying the child via either of those routes would be enormous. There would have been people in the streets and cars.”

Another member of the team, Professor Paulo Sargento, of Lusofana University in Lisbon, said: “I am convinced that whatever happened happened within the McCanns and their group of friends.

“The reconstruction shows how unlikely it is that any other explanation could be possible.”

The McCanns categorically deny causing the death of their daughter or disposing of her body.

A friend dismissed the latest claims as “more wild speculation”. The friend pointed out that the McCanns did not hire a car until 25 days after Madeleine disappeared.

www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/22605

Bullshit from Moita Flores.

A friend dismissed the latest claims as “more wild speculation”.

This is an understatement, if ever I saw one.

Hello,

I returned to luz this summer, and I stay on my theory: a lot of people has access to keys! We have to rent a small house, I list you nobody who(which) possess keys!:
The chambermaid (which(who) stole me from clothes) + women of ménage cleaner+les jardiniers garden+l'homme man who takes care of her(it) piscine swimming pool+la responsible woman of locations+la owner! I do not understand that the police does not look for this quoted(esteemed) there, it is for me the most evident track(runway)!

But it is only a possibility if at least the police had verified, we would be fixed!

But seen that I do not trust, I say to myself that tracks(runways) badly exploited(run) are can be the best!

still looking for little Madeleine!

Thanks for that.

Totally agree about the keys.

It appeared to me back at the time, that when the police 'verfied' the keys, they merely looked at whether people legitimately had keys. But that is not enough. These people may legitimately have the keys but may have used them for a nefarious purpose, or someone else within their household (also having access to the keys) may have done so, or someone may have copied the keys.

There are questions about the keys that were never answered. Just how did the maid get into Apartment 5A when the previous customers tried everything to keep her out. If that was investigated, it never surfaced in the files.