Window Debate

by Rosie Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:59 pm

As Kate McCann herself has said, the window being open is highly relevant to the abduction of her little daughter Madeleine.

Putting my own mind into the mindset of the abductor, I have long since thought that the window being left open, was open probably for more than one reason and I could see the absolute logic, of the abductor entering the apartment by the patio doors (or front door with a pass key) and then going straight into the bedroom and opening the window as an escape route. If someone came back to the apartment unexpectedly, the window would be open and waiting for a very quick exit, no abductor would leave that escape route to the last minute, the window could jam and they would be caught. The window would be the one and only escape route without the abductor being seen, they would hardly go running straight into the path of someone coming back into the apartment.

So if we can think of this very obvious reason for the window being open, how come Moita Flores tried to rubbish it with his ridiculous statement about the the four hands and feet?

I think a detective should examine the testimony of Moita Flores very very closely indeed, there may be one or two clues in that statement, I have certainly seen a couple!

Remember Moita Flores was the person along with Dias Andre' (another ex PJ inspector) who helped get someone off a paedophile charge, worked quite the impossible there, did Moita Flores - apparently!

Back to the window, assuming the window was left open for an escape, it should also be noted that the window is certainly wide enough for even a large human to pass through and it is low enough for a person of average height to step through it without any trouble at all, so bearing this in mind, it would be very easy for an abductor to pass a sleeping child through.

As for the window being closed later, (if it was) then why is this so unusual? Put yourself into the mindset of Kate McCann, you come back and discover your daughter gone, the window open, you know very well that you child could not have opened that window on her own. I know my first reaction would be to go to the open window and look out and I would be calling the child's name, in the hope that they are in the apartment in another room. On seeing the window open and knowing she could nit have opened it, I would automatically think someone else had been on there and I would be petrified, I would run straight to the window and I would probably panic, but be trying to stop myself, I would look out the window, maybe call through it, if my mind was racing, I may even close the window without even realising it and perhaps I may close the window anyway because the other children are there in the room. I could do all this but going on to suffering severe emotional trauma, doing an every day thing like closing a window, may just get blocked out and I do not think there is anything suspicious if this actually happened. It would be quite natural I think.

by Catkins Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:07 am

Having seen close up outside that apartment...........I believe they went in through the door.....(It is so well hidden)...and opened the window to pass Madeleine out if need be , or make a quick exit themselves if the abduction failed. Also it can get quite windy down there in the evening.....so I too would have probably automatically closed the window to keep the twins from getting cold.

The thing that sticks with me was confirmed by my Husband the first time we drove past that apartment block......bearing in mind he wasn't as absorbed in this case as myself....His words were " Look at the position of that front door...this was not a chance abduction."

by Rosie Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:10 am

What I also think about the window and the subsequent position of Madeleine when JT saw her, points very strongly to there being more than one abductor and if this is so, then this was almost definitely a planned abduction.

I do want to add, that personally I do not think that Madeleine was targeted for any other reason, than this poor family happened to occupy that particular apartment 5a, I believe that if any other family with a child had occupied that apartment at that time, then their child would have been the one abducted. I believe the McCann family were watched because they were in that particular apartment, maybe the abductors were waiting for a family to come along that adopted the status quo of leaving their children while carrying out checks.

I also believe that the abductor may very well have had a duplicate key and this is something that Amaral has not even investigated properly, yet this is a very real possibility. If this was investigated immediately, it could have led to inside involvement of staff members at the Ocean!

by Rosie Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:12 am

Cat sorry our posts crossed! I concur with everything you have written and I am very interested in your husband's observation too!

Were you also struck about how big that window was and how low to the ground it was too?

by Sabot Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:16 am

I have a suspicion, like Gerry, that the abductor was already in the appartment when Gerry checked at 9pm, probably hiding in the wardrobe when he heard the door open. After Gerry left, the abductor could then have opened the window for more than one reason. As a means of escape if trapped, to pass Madeleine through, then to get out himself, if not by the front door. Also to dispel any possible smell of a sedative which I believe the abductor used on all three children, although there will be products available nowadays that have no smell

All of these continental locks can be opened from the inside without a key, this I know to be true because I deal with several houses with locks like this. Even my own house has such a lock. You only need a key to open them from the outside.

I have been pointing out these things for yonks, on hate sites, and been mightily rubbished and then banned. I now know that I was wasting my time. And I'm sorry that I didn't find this site sooner.

by Pedro Silva Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:37 am

Yes, I agree with Catkins´s husband observation. In my opinion, I still maintain it today, someone has to had a key or a copy of the key, someone entered at the 5A, someone knowed exactly where sweet Madeleine was, someone took her, someone (with gloves) opened / slided the window, delivered her to someone outside the window, which explains that the person seen by Mrs. Tanner was the person with the little girl in the arms. So, yes, I agree, Mrs. McCann is absolutely right, the window is relevant to the abduction of sweet Madeleine. I have always told, and I still maintain it today, in my opinion, someone from the resort is involved in this abduction. So, like Catkins´s husband wisely told, and I quote: "This was not a chance abducton", it was like Rosiepops wisely says, a planned abduction (which is also what the PI´s believes), I also wonder (this may seen weird, but, under the circumstances, I don´t think weird, as a matter of fact I think this is a plausible idea of mine, since the first second of this planned abduction) if the 5A was given to the couple with the purpose of create a easy and better way to abduct the little girl, with every way to allow the little girl to be given through the window (which for me, it was what happened) also to allow the accomplice (in case of someone appeared at 5A), that someone could easily hide himself, so, yes, I agree with Mr.McCann when he told that someone was already inside the 5A, waiting for Mr.McCann to check Madeleine and her twins, then to return to the Tapas, then to abduct her, give her to someone outside, near the window. I also wonder if someone related with the abduction was watching the couple with their friends, waiting for the best moment to alert the abductor and the one outside the window, for the right moment.

by Rosie Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:40 am

Sabot, I can't tell you how much I agree with what you have written, I too have thought about this sedation and perhaps the window was left open to ensure that the abductor did not become overcome by the fumes. Actually this is easier done as you have said with the newer products that have a low odour or are odourless! (If you cannot detect the odour, then you can get overcome quickly and easily)

Also another little thing I would like to add, your point about hiding in the wardrobe really does make me think, could the dogs have picked up on the odour coming off the abductor?
Also in one of the shots on the extended video where Eddie indicates between the wardrobe and the bed after he comes out of the wardrobe, the actual bathroom is next to that wall on the other side and the toilet with the "soil" pipe would also run along there! (Just an observation of mine)

Another thing that worries about this wardrobe, is that the previous occupants who owned the apartment prior to the owner who owned it at the time the McCanns rented it (a Mrs McCann NO relation of course).
Do you remember the girl giving a statement that she noticed the person hanging about outside and looking into the apartment? She said she remembered because that apartment used to belong to her grandparents and she always looked when she went past it.
Well she also said that her grandfather died in hospital and thinking about that, would his family have collected his property, which would have been listed and stored with him, even for a short time? How do we know that property was not stored in that particular wardrobe?

I realise this is a remote possibility, but even so it still remains a possibility and Amaral seems to have discounted all possibilities and not even have investigated them and I believe this is how vital clues have been lost, regardles of whether I am right or wrong about the clothes in the wardrobe!

Remember to at this point that Ricardo Paiva, also pointed out that because Amaral insisted on his "thesis" no ther theories were investigated!

by christabel Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:40 am

Sabot wrote:I have a suspicion, like Gerry, that the abductor was already in the appartment when Gerry checked at 9pm, probably hiding in the wardrobe when he heard the door open. After Gerry left, the abductor could then have opened the window for more than one reason. As a means of escape if trapped, to pass Madeleine through, then to get out himself, if not by the front door. Also to dispel any possible smell of a sedative which I believe the abductor used on all three children, although there will be products available nowadays that have no smell

All of these continental locks can be opened from the inside without a key, this I know to be true because I deal with several houses with locks like this. Even my own house has such a lock. You only need a key to open them from the outside.

I have been pointing out these things for yonks, on hate sites, and been mightily rubbished and then banned. I now know that I was wasting my time. And I'm sorry that I didn't find this site sooner.

I agree Sabot. Also remember the report in the files from a witness (2 infact) that the door could be unlocked from the outside, even with it locked from the inside and the key left in the lock.

by Sabot Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:48 am

Yes, Pedro. The Abductor could even have hidden in the appartment, knowing that Gerry would check at 9pm, and then passed Madeleine through the windo once Gerry had left.

The absence of Forensics is irrelevant, gloves would have taken care of that. But then The PJ didn't do a proper sweep for three months, and after several other people had rented the appartment.

It has to have been a planned abduction, everything points to that, and certainly it had to be someone with prior knowledge of Praia da Luz.

by Tinkerbell43 Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:19 am

Sabot wrote:I have a suspicion, like Gerry, that the abductor was already in the appartment when Gerry checked at 9pm, probably hiding in the wardrobe when he heard the door open. After Gerry left, the abductor could then have opened the window for more than one reason. As a means of escape if trapped, to pass Madeleine through, then to get out himself, if not by the front door. Also to dispel any possible smell of a sedative which I believe the abductor used on all three children, although there will be products available nowadays that have no smell

All of these continental locks can be opened from the inside without a key, this I know to be true because I deal with several houses with locks like this. Even my own house has such a lock. You only need a key to open them from the outside.

I have been pointing out these things for yonks, on hate sites, and been mightily rubbished and then banned. I now know that I was wasting my time. And I'm sorry that I didn't find this site sooner.

Sabot, you and I are on exactly the same wavelength.

by Catkins Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:31 am

Here is a link with pics of the apartment.........

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

That window is easily accessible, useable..And look at the size of the wardrobe and as we all know on holiday we don't take enough luggage to fill a wardrobe....Usually hanging a few good bits if that. It has crossed my mind that the person was in the flat whilst Gerry was in there.
I agree that M was chosen because if you were planning to abduct then that was the best apartment. There are bushes and trees, if someone came upon you, you could easily hide. It was also fairly dark outside the apartment leading to the small Car Park for the aptmnts.
I also read in the files that the door could be unlocked from the outside even if the key was in the door on the inside.

Makes me wonder...I'm pretty sure in the Files....one of the men who came to the aprtmnt that day to fix a door and show Kate how to use the washing machine..Luis Ferro I think..........Why was his trace or DNA found in Michaela Walcuch/Luis Anthony's VW Passat?

by Rosie Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:45 am

This is the window, why does Moita Flores think a child could not be passed through this window, it is plenty big enough.

Window Debate Window10

by Cath Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:49 am

I think a lot of us are on the same wavelength.

As for Moita's statement the window was too small to pass a child :

Window Debate Paulod11

SNAP Rosie & Catkins

by christabel Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:02 am

Cath wrote:I think a lot of us are on the same wavelength.
As for Moita's statement the window was too small to pass a child :
SNAP Rosie & Catkins

Bloomin ek Cath Levy could get through that window. I hope the judge goes to look for herself.

by Sabot Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:09 am

To me, the window is the most obvious suspicion of all. Kate will have know instantly of what had happened. I don't know if Kate shut the window, but it would have been normal with the twins still in the room. And in the state of panic that she must have been in.

Incidentally, these shutters do not make a noise. I spend my Summers opening and closing these same type of shutters. They don't make a sound even when not being very careful. I know because I have tried. Several times.

by Sabot Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:12 am

christabel wrote:
Cath wrote:I think a lot of us are on the same wavelength.

As for Moita's statement the window was too small to pass a child :

Bloomin ek Cath Levy could get through that window. I hope the judge goes to look for herself.

SNAP Rosie & Catkins

I wouldn't say much for Levy's chances myself. But interestingly enough, the window isn't even very far off the ground.

by Rosie Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:37 am

Here is another picture of the bedroom window from inside, plenty big enough to get through, even for a biggish person and definitely large enough for someone to pass a child through.
Moita Flores done Amaral no favours at all ridiculing the McCanns over these windows because Amaral and him have been thoroughly disproved.

Can you imagine how frustrating it must have been for Kate and Gerry to have known all this incorrect rubbish was going about and being gagged so they could not speak the truth?
Perhaps Kate and Gerry should put the record straight and publish their own book, at least the money could be put to finding Madeleine.

Window Debate Window11

by Rosie Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:40 am

Sabot wrote:
christabel wrote:
Cath wrote:I think a lot of us are on the same wavelength.

As for Moita's statement the window was too small to pass a child :

Bloomin ek Cath Levy could get through that window. I hope the judge goes to look for herself.

SNAP Rosie & Catkins

I wouldn't say much for Levy's chances myself. But interestingly enough, the window isn't even very far off the ground.

Quite right Sabot, which is what we have been saying all along, the window is very close to the ground, making it very easy to climb in and out of and I am still not 100% convinced that the abductors did not enter through the window, it is a possibility.

by Sabot Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:42 am

Rosiepops wrote:
Here is another picture of the bedroom window from inside, plenty big enough to get through, even for a biggish person and definitely large enough for someone to pass a child through.
Moita Flores done Amaral no favours at all ridiculing the McCanns over these windows because Amaral and him have been thoroughly disproved.

Can you imagine how frustrating it must have been for Kate and Gerry to have known all this incorrect rubbish was going about and being gagged so they could not speak the truth?
Perhaps Kate and Gerry should put the record straight and publish their own book, at least the money could be put to finding Madeleine.

I wish they would write a book. I would certainly buy it.

Actually, I think that the Haters would as well, just to poo hoo it. I don't care what they do with it, so long as they buy it.

It can't be printed on The Internet because of that annoying little law of Copyright.

by Cath Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:42 am

I wouldn't say much for GA's chances either.
Or Moita Flores....

Window Debate Tvguia11

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_12.jpg

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_17.jpg

ETA Rosie, that's a patio door. There's two of those (I think). In K&G's bedroom and in the living room.

by Sabot Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:44 am

Rosiepops wrote:
Sabot wrote:
christabel wrote:
Cath wrote:I think a lot of us are on the same wavelength.

As for Moita's statement the window was too small to pass a child :

Bloomin ek Cath Levy could get through that window. I hope the judge goes to look for herself.

SNAP Rosie & Catkins

I wouldn't say much for Levy's chances myself. But interestingly enough, the window isn't even very far off the ground.

Quite right Sabot, which is what we have been saying all along, the window is very close to the ground, making it very easy to climb in and out of and I am still not 100% convinced that the abductors did not enter through the window, it is a possibility.

Rosie, someone just down the road from me, broke into the same type of shutters not so long ago. No one heard a sound. A couple of days later the shutters were put back by the police without any sign of damage.

by Rosie Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:10 am

Cath wrote:I wouldn't say much for GA's chances either.
Or Moita Flores....

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_12.jpg

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_17.jpg

ETA Rosie, that's a patio door. There's two of those (I think). In K&G's bedroom and in the living room.

All the photos I have put up, I thought have been the bedroom, the last one is an actual picture from insde of Madeleine's bedroom, that bottom part is the window sill?

Window Debate Window12

by Cath Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:35 am

Ah yes, that explains it Rosie. I could only see the inlay. It's two different photo's one of the bedroom window, one of (some) patio doors. You can see the tiles. And no wall.

by christabel Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:40 am

I knew that case was on the wall and not the floor!

by christabel Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:43 am

Cath wrote:Ah yes, that explains it Rosie. I could only see the inlay. It's two different photo's one of the bedroom window, one of (some) patio doors. You can see the tiles. And no wall.

No Cath, its one photo. What you think is the tiles is the window ledge, you can see the white wall outside of the smaller one.

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