Re: Spin off Thread For Discussions Of The New Questions Thread

[vee8]

I think the J4 authors need to rewrite their book!

[Rosie]

I took this from our 'current' questions thread about Goncalo Amaral, it is a post made by Maria (hope you don't mind Maria). Only I think this is a salient and very, very important point.

16. Has the window's handle in Madeleine's bedroom been checked for digital impressions? If yes and there weren't any, how was that window closed after Kate McCann 'opened it' by applying her full hand on the glass? Was it unlocked all the time (the lock is on the handle)? Who closed it and how, as it was closed when GNR? PJ? arrived there?

And if no, why not?

[Pedro Silva]

Or write a new book.

[Rosie]

Maria, I was under the impression that Kate found the window open? She stated that she felt the draught from the window as she pulled the door to the bedroom towards her, when she was trying to make put if Madeleine was in her bed in the darkness of the room. On discovering that Madeleine was not in her bed and saw the window open, she immediately ran to it and looked out, could she have inadvertently touched it then? She said it was at this point she realised that someone had taken Madeleine, because a child could never have opened that window on their own.

I am convinced that this window plays an important part in Madeleine's abduction, I am of a mind to believe that the abductor entered the apartment and immediately opened the window for two main reasons, the first to give him/herself a quick getaway if anyone came back to the apartment and two, the window was used to pass Madeleine through to an accomplice because Gerry and Jes were unexpectedly standing in the road outside which was originally planned to be used to take Madeleine away. Another reason, possibly, the window was also opened to allow the fumes of a chemical to escape, the chemical which may have been used to sedate Madeleine and her brother and sister.

[maria]

Yes you are right, Kate found the window open (and I think it was because of any smell, but that is not important at the moment). She ran to give the alarm, we don't know if she closed the window before or after or even if it was her who closed the window.

Amaral sustains that the ONLY fingertips on the window is the full Kate's hand opening the window. This could easily happen later, when she was explaining to GNR/PJ how she found the window: the window was closed and she applied her hand on the glass and slided it to show how she found it. Or could have happened the moment she found the window was open: the window was not fully open and she slided it wide open applying her hand on the glass (very plausible).

After that, the window should have been closed again, right? And this time not by applying the hand on the glass but naturally pulling the window with the handle. Who did it? Kate? GNR? PJ with gloves? Did Kate explain how she found the window open just once? Could she or someone else have opened and closed that window using the handle? The handle should have been dusted anyway for any fingertips and Kate exact procedure to explain how she found that window recorded down correctly and in very detailed way.

And if Kate explained it more than once (first to GNR and then to PJ) all these reports should have been very well written down or videotaped. A reconstruction of the moment when Kate found Madeleine was missing.

[Rosie]

Yes you are right Maria and because the window is important, I think what happened has been deliberately confused and muddled with poor recording of events.

There is also the strong possibility that Kate's print was on that window *BEFORE* Madeleine was abducted, it would be entirely unremarkable if it were. How man of us enter a holiday apartment and go to the window and open it and look out?

What I find strange is that the window was devoid of other prints, that is really odd, how come in a holiday let there was only Kate's prints and one GNR's? It seems to me as if someone had deliberately cleaned off the window and was probably wearing gloves!

Kate must have explained to the GNR and later the PJ what happened at the window, where are their reports? Where is it mentioned in their paperwork?

*Why did the forensic technician take prints with her un-gloved right hand, her hair blowing in the wind instead f being covered? Why was she not wearing scene of crime overalls?*

[maria]

One thing: the GNR prints are on the shutter, not the window.

And yes you are right, that print could have been there since the beginning of the holiday, it doesn't have a time stamp on it.

However, it is not natural that you open or close a window with your hand on the glass. (You will notice that I changed my previous post a little bit) Unless the window is ajar and/or you are in a hurry, or other unusual situations, you pull/push that window by the handle. Even because at the same time you lock/unlock the window.

The handle should have been examined even if the only prints on the glass and the handle that came out were Kate's. Then should have come logical reasoning: didn't the maids ever touched that window and specially the handle? Shouldn't their prints be there also? etc

[bluj1515]

Brilliant observation Maria

[christabel]

Remember the blood on the bumper of the Scenic from a size 5 boot (GNR)same footprint allegedly found in apartment doorway Did this same GNR have the car keys that was supposed to have blood on?

[clairesy]

there must have been more that just kates finger prints on that window. Besides they wouldn't have left the window wide open blowing curtains around the room knowing the children were in there sleeping.So who's finger prints were on the window???Think we had that answer back months and months ago.......

If i remember correctly British detectives found the prints of a Portuguese cop on the windows.

The police didn't say who's prints they were although ruled them out...why??I don't think they should be ruled out at all especially given the weird goings on in Portugal with casa pia etc and the joana case.

[Rosie]

As Bluj said, it is a brilliant observation Maria. I have often wondered why no other prints were on that glass. You may open a stiff window like that with a flat palm and the other hand on the handle, especially if you are in a hurry and a panic and not thinking. When we were on the DX we had a detective inspector called John Carr, who went into detail about these windows and shutters and he for one, thinks it was highly suspect that s few prints were on that window, he thought that this should have been a serious line of inquiry! If I remember correctly, he said he would have expected far more prints to be on the window and shutters and he thought it was entirely unremarkable that Kate's prints would have been on there, he would have been surprised had they not been there!

[Rosie]

Remember the blood on the bumper of the Scenic from a size 5 boot (GNR)same footprint allegedly found in apartment doorway Did this same GNR have the car keys that was supposed to have blood on?

You know Chris, I have tried and tried to find the answer to that, I think it is strange, that they do not mention that key fob in any of the reports.

Remember too, the GNR crashed Murat's camper van, on the way to the car park and that the GNR driving the cars were doing so in their own clothes and NOT wearing scene of crime overalls or overshoes?

Now Amaral was at those tests, why did he not oversee this and see that it was done properly? Who from forensics was present at those tests to ensure that it was all done by the book?

[christabel]

there must have been more that just kates finger prints on that window. Besides they wouldn't have left the window wide open blowing curtains around the room knowing the children were in there sleeping.So who's finger prints were on the window???Think we had that answer back months and months ago.......

If i remember correctly British detectives found the prints of a Portuguese cop on the windows.

The police didn't say who's prints they were although ruled them out...why??I don't think they should be ruled out at all especially given the weird goings on in Portugal with casa pia etc and the joana case.

Clairesy, I remember it being said there was a thumb print on the window and it was months before they found it was a GNR's print.

[clairesy]

Hi chris,

that's right.They found a finger print that they had no match to.....infact they were looking for the mysterious person because they felt it could be connected to Madeleine's abduction.Although when British cops went to pdl and matched it to a portuguse cop they annouced that everything was fine and the prints were that of a cop so back to the drawing board????Why???IMO they should have investigated that cop.

[christabel]

Thats what I remember Claire,
Maybe he was paid to muck the crime scene up, who knows?

[clairesy]

Ive always wondered who the cop was who befriended the mccanns before madeleine was taken.I would love to know that.And i bet gonc knows who it is.

[christabel]

Ive always wondered who the cop was who befriended the mccanns before madeleine was taken.I would love to know that.And i bet gonc knows who it is.

It is the one who ignored Kate in the interview at the police station, if I remember correctly.

[Tinkerbell43]

Ive always wondered who the cop was who befriended the mccanns before madeleine was taken.I would love to know that.And i bet gonc knows who it is.

It is the one who ignored Kate in the interview at the police station, if I remember correctly.

You remember right Chris, I've took the following from the Panorama transcript:-

BILTON: As Kate McCann sits down in the interview room she recognises one of the detectives.

SUSAN HEALY
Kate McCann's mother
They'd had a meal with this guy, with his family, and the children have played together, and she talked to me about this particular police officer as being as if he was a friend, and she felt quite comforted by having this guy who spoke English as well, and he was in the interview and he didn't make eye contact with Kate at all.

[Rosie]

I thought they only became friends with this policeman and his family after Madeleine was abducted?

[dianeh]

On the fingerprints on the glass. I have sliding windows in my house, and I sometimes put my hand on the glass when closing them, not opening, as you need to use the handle to do that, but easy to close by putting hand on the window. Plus I dont have to clean them, I have a cleaner who does that. Kate may also have put her hand on the window to steady herself if she looked out the window.

I believe there were other fingerprints on the window but none where of sufficient standard to allow matching. That would mean they were just partials, or smudged etc. Only Kate's fingerprints were off sufficient quality to allow for matching. That would then imply (but doesnt prove) that Kate put her hand on the window relatively late in the picture. Now I am remembering this from a thread from another forum, so may have it wrong. But if true and there were other fingerprints or bits of them, what is the relationship between these and Kate's. Were there any fingerprints where Kate's were, which may have indicated possible timings? There is no mention of that in the files, and I dont remember reading about this on any other forum either.

[christabel]

Ive always wondered who the cop was who befriended the mccanns before madeleine was taken.I would love to know that.And i bet gonc knows who it is.

It is the one who ignored Kate in the interview at the police station, if I remember correctly.

You remember right Chris, I've took the following from the Panorama transcript:-

BILTON: As Kate McCann sits down in the interview room she recognises one of the detectives.

SUSAN HEALY
Kate McCann's mother
They'd had a meal with this guy, with his family, and the children have played together, and she talked to me about this particular police officer as being as if he was a friend, and she felt quite comforted by having this guy who spoke English as well, and he was in the interview and he didn't make eye contact with Kate at all.

Thanks Tinks,

I thought I had as I remembered something about their children playing together.

[maria]

I didn't fully read the files, so... My question and all the support of what I said stems from an interview with Amaral where he is very clear: there were only Kate's imprints, the full hand opening the window.

[Tinkerbell43]

I thought they only became friends with this policeman and his family after Madeleine was abducted?

Thats correct Rosie. I seem to think his initial role was as their family relations officer, but I could be wrong.

I think it was quite telling that he couldn't look Kate in the face!

[dianeh]

Maria

Interesting that Amaral says the fingerprints occurred while opening the window, when in reality, it is very difficult to open that type of window using the glass. It is much more likely that she was closing the window or resting her hand against it. But that doesnt fit with Amaral's fantasy that Kate opened the window for some nefarious reason.

What amazes me with Amaral is that he makes a big deal about Kate's fingerprints on the window, as though it proves something. When all it proves is

1. Kate was in the apartment (umm, yes we already knew that)
2. Kate touched the window (umm, yes, when staying in an house or apartment we often touch the windows)

The whole thing is simply an attempt at a diversion away from any evidence of an abductor.

Quite simply, Kate touching the window does not exclude an abductor from having taken Madeleine. And that is even if Kate said she didnt touch the window, because it doesnt mean she lied, it simply means that she may not have been aware, or not remembered that she touched the window. After all, who remembers common things like when they opened and closed a window, let alone if the window were open or closed during a high stress period. Simply a red herring, like much of what Amaral sprouts.

[dianeh]

I thought they only became friends with this policeman and his family after Madeleine was abducted?

Thats correct Rosie. I seem to think his initial role was as their family relations officer, but I could be wrong.

I think it was quite telling that he couldn't look Kate in the face!

If he was their family relations officer, why would their children play together? Surely that would have been in his professional capacity and therefore his family should not have been involved. If they were, then there is something else to investigate. Was the relationship proper, did it meet guidelines for interaction with victims of crime, or was it a staged relationship to try to get information from the McCanns?

There is always the possibility that this police officer was for real and that he had empathy for the McCanns. His failure to look them in the eye could have been his own guilt at having deceived them. But the whole incident is worthy of an investigation.

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