Cadaver Dogs

While the results of the DNA are inconclusive about linking death with Madeleine. In debate with Antis this Cadacer issue has become like flipping a coin. They use it to say that even though the PJ reports that Kate and Gerry are innocent this evidence will always point a finger at them. I use it to say the evidence proves absolutely nothing. However, I have searched and searched to find something which will allow me to back my beleif that the cadaver findings are being mistakingly used to point a finger. Does anyone else here have any findings as to what may have caused the dogs to smell death?. Do they make mistakes? and are there sometimes other chemicals that can be confused with death?


The most common argument before the report was that Kate and Gerry were guilty of neglect. I had enough facts to back myself up against that opinion using the law itself. After the PJ report antis always fall back on the "yes but what about Pamelas statement about hearing a child crying for over an hour" and "The cadaver dogs found death" Pamelas statement was nothing more than her own personal speculative opinion about who was actually crying but the dog issue is the final nail in the antis coffin if I could back it up with a strong argument.

First Pamela Fenn has denied that she ever said that Madeleine was crying for hours. The link to the vidoeo of her saying this is on another thread here on the forum. She also said that she didnt even know there were children in the apartment until Madeleine disappeared. All her own words, not repeated as smears or lies by the Portuguese press. That is why I question the accuracy of the report to the magistrate because it contains the claim that Pamela Fenn said she heard Madeleine crying for hours. If it were true, why would she deny it, she could have used a no comment instead. And why does the report say she said it. Again, I think that there are translation problems.

As for the dogs. There are any number of articles about the reasons that the dog evidence cannot be used in court to indicate that a murder has taken place when there is no body. And it is all to do with the unreliability of the dogs reactions when there is no body to find. Where a body exists, or has been known to exist in a specific place, the dogs are very good (but no where near 100%, as shown by the Jersey case, where false positives have been reported). But where there is no body to find, and never has been, the dogs are proven to be wrong in as many as 8 out of 10 times.

Here is an article which gives a very good explanation and it is written by an expert, and even better it is specifically about Madeleine's case.

Scent of a Dead Woman
Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?
By Torie Bosch
Posted Tuesday, Sept. 18, 2007, at 6:11 PM ET

A cadaver-sniffing dog seeks a body
The parents of Madeleine McCann, the 4-year-old British girl who went missing in Portugal in May, were officially named suspects on Sept. 7 by Portuguese police. The change came after developments in the case, including sniffer dogs detecting the "smell of death" on Madeleine's Cuddle Cat toy and her mother's clothes. They did not, however, find a body. Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?

Not really—especially if a lot of time has elapsed since the body was removed from the scene. Cadaver dogs can find the remains of people who have been dead for years or even decades. But it's much harder for the dogs if the bulk of the remains are gone. In that case, they can pick up the scent from small amounts of body tissue, like a blood stain or nail clippings, or even from materials that came into contact with the tissue. But in the absence of an actual body, the smell of death will dissipate. There's speculation that Madeleine died on the night her parents reported her disappearance—which would mean that she passed away four months ago. It's not clear if a detectable scent could linger on her mother's clothes for all that time.

Researchers are trying to determine how long the scent lingers when the body is no longer present, but there are no conclusive results yet—it may be two weeks, or it may be longer. One former Scotland Yard dog handler talking about the McCann case hypothesized that the scent wouldn't last more than a month.


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The dogs couldn't necessarily prove anything even if Madeleine's body had been in recent contact with her mother's clothes. Since they didn't turn up any actual remains, investigators had to rely on the "smell of death" itself, an odor that stems from the decomposition process. Without a body, they can't be certain that the animals didn't make a mistake. Cadaver dogs do mess up from time to time: The McCanns have sought out attorneys who convinced a judge in Wisconsin that certain dogs were accurate just 22 percent to 38 percent of the time. (The prosecution claimed a success rate of 60 percent to 69 percent.)

Cadaver dogs learn to spot the "smell of death" and find its source during the training process, which involves exposing them to either actual human remains—blood, teeth, bones—or pseudoscent, an artificial substance that re-creates the death odor. (One chemical company markets several pseudoscent formulas for training cadaver dogs—recently dead, post-decomposition, and drowning victim.) The dogs also learn to differentiate human remains from animal remains.

A dog's utility depends on the skill of its handler. Identifying false signals is an important part of working with a cadaver dog, and results should be backed up with forensic testing. When a dog gives a signal, such as barking or sitting down, to indicate that it has smelled a corpse, a handler can only say something along the lines of, "My dog is giving an indication consistent with human blood." He can't say definitively that, yes, a body was present, without further confirmation—in the form of a blood stain, for example.

Got a question about today's news? Ask the Explainer.

Explainer thanks Maria Claxton of the South Carolina Search and Rescue Dog Association, Larry Myers of the Auburn University College of Veterinary Medicine, and Andrew Rebmann of K9 Specialty Search Associates.

And here is the link.

http://www.slate.com/id/2174177/

Plenty of ammunition here for you.

Diane, thanks for posting that article I hadnt read it before. I also believe the technical term for these dogs is "Enhanced Victim Recovery Dogs" meaning they are trained to detect victim/human remains either in whole or part, they are not trained to identify where dead bodies have been.

Also their work is indicative only, it is down to forensics to gather and investigate any potential evidence. The dogs cannot distinguish the age of any deposits, some of what they may indicate could be innocent deposits from long ago aswell as what could prove to be crucial evidence.

As we know, all dna samples were inconclusive, as for the scent of death, I dont know how something only a dog can smell can be classed as conclusive!

As you say Diane, false positives have also been recorded, the recent Jersey case is a prime example. What was thought to be a human skull turned out to be a piece of coconut shell.

You Said....(Excerpt)

Cadaver dogs learn to spot the "smell of death" and find its source during the training process, which involves exposing them to either actual human remains—blood, teeth, bones—or pseudoscent, an artificial substance that re-creates the death odor. (One chemical company markets several pseudoscent formulas for training cadaver dogs—recently dead, post-decomposition, and drowning victim.) The dogs also learn to differentiate human remains from animal remains

.

further to our discussions, are you thinking what I am thinking?

Tinks, I'll email you.

No I wasnt. It is 1 am here, and I am writing questions for a trivia night I am hosting tomorrow night. I have just finished them. I dont know why I stretch myself so thin.

Back to business.

I didnt know that such scents existed. But now that I do, yes, I agree.

Rosie, I get where you are coming from!

I was always of the understanding that there was no legal way that a police officer can obtain cadaver material for training purposes. Its interesting to learn that there is an artificial substance used for training purposes.

Makes you question why the PJ took the scenic to an underground carpark. Police sources alleged at the time that is was an unusual place to carryout such a delicate search!.

Is it true that these dogs only pick up the scent of death from a body thats been laying around for 2 hours or more???

I read somewhere that when a person dies the scent that these dogs pick up on does not get released from the body for a while after the death?

Also is it true that Ruth mccann(the owner of the apartment) had a husband that died there?From a bronchi disease of some sort?

Just a few things ive heared ...not sure how much of it is rumor and how much is true.... but wondered if anyone else knew anything about this. I have googled this matter regarding Ruth mccanns husband(Micheal William mccann) but cant find out where and how he died.

Wow, thanks guys and Dianeh!! That link is fantastic, thank you. Rosiepops I know what you are thinking, lol. I wonder how easily available it is????

Dianeh there is some confusion regarding the video of Pamela as she states she did not speak to the press. This could mean she did not speak to the press to deny that she said anything to the PJ. Meaning she did make that statement to the PJ. Do you have a link to when she said about not even knowing the McCanns were their?

I'm playing devils advocate here because I can pre empt the anti response who I have been talking to, they have already defended against me by stating that Pamela denied talking to the papers on the video. If I say the papers say she didn't know the McCanns were there I will be told that she a;ready denied saying that. Anyone know if she has made any statements since?? Or if there are Two videos maybe?

Clairesy, thats news to me. Is Ruth McCann or her late husband related to our McCanns?

No Ruth McCann is not related to The McCanns, I believe this was confirmed in the Panorama programme. It would be interesting to know though, whether her husband did die in Apartment 5a. Where's Christabel when you need her, lol.

Hi modnrodder and tinks,

No Ruth and Micheal Mccann aren't related to Kate and gerry mccann.However they live only minuIts from her mums house.Im not sure about where her husband died but I know he died..Dont quote me on this as im not sure where I got the info from but for some reason I have been under the impression he died of a bad chest illness.If i remember correctly one which might of resulted in the coughing up of blood.I remember this because when on msn once(around the time it was reported blood spots were found in Madeleine's bedroom)It was suggested that the coughing up of blood could have resulted in minute blood specks being missed on the wall??
For the life of me I cant get a report up on it which was why I asked on here if anybody else had heared of it.

After her husband died Ruth became the sole owner of apartment 5a although I believe she as recently sold it after madeleines abduction.

The apartment is owned by Ruth Margaret McCann, who is unrelated to the McCanns according to family spokesperson Clarence Mitchell.

The apartment A, number 5, locate at Rua Dr. Agostinho da Silva, Montes da Luz Urbanization, Praia da luz, is registered with the number 3666.


In 2001 the house was bought by a kind of society belonging to Daniel John Aldred, his daughter Donna Michelle Aldred (from his first marriage), Michael William McCann and his wife, Ruth Margaret McCann.

Michael McCann born in Devonport, Plymouth was a widower when he married Margaret Ruth Pittaway, 53, who was also widowed in 1987.

In 2005, Michael and Ruth bought the part of the Aldred couple giving each of them 50% of the apartment.


Later in July 2006 Michael McCann died in Liverpool and in November of the same year Ruth McCann inherited his part becoming the only proprietor.

Martin Brunt, Sky News Crime Correspondent, said in his blog of 20 December 2007 that he had asked the McCanns spokesperson, Clarence Mitchell, why the apartment from where Madeleine disappeared was registered to an owner called McCann.

Brunt says: "I had to pester him for an answer, which only added to my suspicion that it was Gerry and Kate's second home and for some reason they had pretended it was a holiday rental.

We finally nailed it. The place belongs to a Ruth McCann, a teacher in Liverpool (where Kate is from), who inherited it from her late husband.

She told us she was no relation to Madeleine's family and hoped she wouldn't be pestered after my inquiry.

In fact, she was more interested in learning whether she was likely to get compensation from the police who have, at last, kept the apartment as a locked crime scene.

The chance of the McCanns renting a holiday home from someone of the same name is 7,500-to-one."


hope this helps
sian
xx

she has not sold it she is still the sole owner,also she was the lady who let news of the world latest report into the apartment to look around take photos etc.

micheal maccann died of broncitus..in lecester but i wonder if he had coughing fits in portugal and returned before he died.

You are right when you say Ruth McCann put the apartment up for sale soon after Madeleine went missing. But I am not sure if it was ever sold. I certainly remember Sky stating that apartment was up for sale...because at the time I could not believe the PJ had allowed it. But we live and learn.

Thanks for that load of info Sian. I can feel I'm starting an obsession with learning the science of cadaver dogs. lol.

Seems they can be considered reliable if actual human remains are found. No remains and it's like flipping a coin, which is how a judge in America termed their evidence in a similar case where there was just the scent of death wothout a body.

the same happenned in jersy could smell the scent found no body,makes me think how reliable are these dogs

The apartment as definitely been sold, for half the going rate apparently. Heres a report I just found from the sun dated June 07.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From JULIE MOULT
in Praia da Luz

Published: 19 Jun 2007
rigTeaserImage
THE apartment where Madeleine McCann was snatched has been sold ? for HALF PRICE.

The two-bed flat went for just £74,000 when the market rate for similar properties is £150,000.

Estate agents denied the price of the Ocean Club apartment in Praia da Luz, Portugal, had been hit because of the abduction of four-year-old Maddie 47 days ago.

But an insider said: “It was quite a surprise that it went on the market for such a low price and sold so quickly.

“You would think it would have been hard to sell, but the buyers were obviously not that bothered about its past.”

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hmmmmdidnt think it would bring much money .I wonder why she felt the need to sell it right smack bang in the middle of all of this???surely if she had waited until this story had maybe taken a back seat...which no doubt it will one day, she would have gotten the going rate for it?


Just a personal thought but to me she jumped the gun..........I wouldn't have sold it................I would have left it sat and waited......... Pondered for quite some time................not sold it only weeks after madeleine was abducted. Someone wold have payed for it in time to come......anyone else think this is a bit odd??? I certainly do.

The video of Mrs Fenn etc, is on the McCann Files blog.

Sian posted the links etc on here, so she can may be able to find it again. I dont have time to look today, as I am getting ready for a trivia night I am hosting tonight.

Sian and I had a discussion about this very thing. If you send me a PM to remind me, I can look for you tomorrow.

Cheers

Thanks Clairesy...I remember reading that now. The thing that struck me at the time was how come the PJ allowed this because it was the crime scene. Why was it not still cordoned off etc etc.
The mind boggles!

i dont care about that last article the apartment was not sold,the police would not allow her to sell the crime scene.........................

Time recorded: Unknown, possibly August/September when newspapers started to report on allegations that she had heard screaming and arguing coming from the McCanns apartment.

Although she passionately denies speaking to any journalists, the Daily Mail report of 12 September, and the Sunday Mirror report of 23 September, carry words that Mrs Fenn is 'quoted as saying'. But we don't know whether the quotes were direct to the newspapers themselves or if they came from the same source who is quoted in the other articles. If we believe Mrs Fenn, then the obvious inference is the latter.

Of course, it could be that this short clip of Mrs Fenn speaking was recorded prior to the articles in those two newspapers being published. However, the passion with which Mrs Fenn speaks would appear to imply that she has no intention of speaking to any journalists then, or at any time in the future.

Pamela Fenn says: "Honestly, I have... I know nothing. I have been here 3 months... (indecipherable). I've never spoken to a journalist, they've written rubbish in newspapers. I've never even uttered a word. I've never... it's all rubbish... (indecipherable)."

It should be added that due to Portugal's strict secrecy laws, Mrs Fenn would place herself in a very difficult, not to say illegal, position if she were to discuss aspects of the case that she has previously reported in her police statements.

the video is here

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id66.html

with love sian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTrFb-0zLuY

Thanks for the link and the translation. This is the video I saw before. It doesn't mention the PJ so I would consider that she did make that statement to the PJ although it is based on her own speculation of who was crying and that is not conclusive enough for me.....or the PJ at the end of the day.

ModNrodder wrote:Thanks for the link and the translation. This is the video I saw before. It doesn't mention the PJ so I would consider that she did make that statement to the PJ although it is based on her own speculation of who was crying and that is not conclusive enough for me.....or the PJ at the end of the day.

Agree with you modnrodder 100%.

Also ..something i read in the papers once back months ago......did you know mrs fenn was the lady who allegedly got broken into a few weeks before the mccanns came to stay at the ocean club...She was awoken at night by an intruder.There was no obvious signs of a break in so the conclusion was made that he must of entered her apartment with a key. Apparently he was scared off when he realised mrs fenn had been awoken and had seen him.

The story of mrs fenn hearing children crying..madeleine shouting daddy daddy for hour and and half as always brought a question to me...Why wouldn't she have have intervened at some point.I would never ignore the cries of a young child for such a long period of time. The dad could have been hurt and maybe could have been the reason she was crying.A simple knock at the door or a report to reception about this would have been fine.I don't think she heared the children crying at all.If the pj have got a report of a child crying for daddy!!Then maybe it came from the other apartments.Didn't one of the tapas have a sick child on holidays???

In goncs book it says The children cried for well over an hour....and only stopped when the mccanns returned.......It also says that the following morning madeleine questioned her parents as to why they were not around when her and sean cried last night..if mrs fenn says she didn't make this statement to police then who did.Is the statement true or is it fabricated to make it appear the children were left in states of hysteria night after night by their parents.It might very well be illegal for him to make things up like this...but who can prove its made up???If he says he was given a statement by a local resident, then who is going to contradict that....especially as it comes from the cop in charge.....isn't he being held accountable soon along with some others for falsifying documents(and battering someone) in another missing child case?? .....Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.......... methinks so.
Now this guy could be totally innocent in this and his work only questioned and contradicted becasue he was the cop in charge...then again I could also be the tooth fairy waiting too pounce on my latest toothless victim...who knows hey.

Another thing I have had on my mind with regards to the dogs and goncy is this....................

In the begining dogs were used to trail madeleine...they followed her scent here there and everywhere over luz.right down to the beach.this brought them to the bizarre theorie she could have been taken to sea and dumped in a bag weighed down with bricks...To me it ment nothing as madeleine was on holiday and would have been walking around luz with her parents and also running around on the beach etc.The dogs probably thought it was their birthday when told to trail her scent .....they probably though right here we go shes been all over the bloody place...shops beach sea creche tennis courts etc.....no cop in their right mind would have taken the word of the dogs serious in these circustances.
The one thing that did strike me as odd was why the dogs trailed one scent to the garden of mr murats house???So unless Kate and gerry popped there for tea on occasions i don't understand why her scent was picked up there. Down that road to his house is nothing of interest to a tourist.The beach is in the opposite direction and so are the shops.
However the reason the dogs possibly trailed her to his home was maybe due to the fact he was allowed to trespass the scene of the crime in the early stages before he was suspected and maybe took her scent there by himself?.................Hmmmmmmmm which again points to the blunders of the pj for allowing this to happen in the first place.

What as bothered me about this is why they didn't allow British dogs and their handlers into luz at that tme.They were told these dogs were the best of their kind and that time is of the essence so the job needed to be done soon.They refused and told them they didn't want help from British cops...but later(weeks and weeks) they accepted their help???Why the delay???

thing is you see.....Portuguese dogs were took inside the apartment and made to sniff about for any incriminating evidence..they found none.It was only weeks later when brit dogs went to sniff they came out trumps and found blood all over the place.Now in my opinion the Portuguese dogs are either as incompetent as the Portuguese cops or the blood wasn't there in the first place for them to find..how was it only found weeks later by brit dogs???.AND.... if the Portuguese dogs dogs are that dim...why would the pj trust them trailing madeleine all over luz...why would they have come to the sordid conclusion she might have been dumped at sea becasue her trail was followed to the waters edge??

I do remember this about Mrs Fenn coming across an intruder in her apartment and the police were called and this is a matter of record. Yet it is something that seems to have been glossed over and not even mentioned in this report. I would have thought that it would have been pertinent to this investigation because it puts illegal intrusive suspicious activity right at a scene were a little girl was allegedly abducted from her bed.

Did you know also that Mrs Fenn's daughter actually saw men hanging around outside apartment 5a and this too was reported, but it is unclear what, if anything was done about this. Mrs Fenn's daughter paid particular attention to this because of course her mother's apartment is directly above apartment 5a.

I do not know why more was not made or mentioned about this, particularly as it has been mentioned that one way the abductor could have gained access to apartment 5a is with a duplicate key. The actual key to apartment 5a has been examined and it is found to be a duplicate, a copy of the original key. Apparently this is a security key to what may be a probable 5 lock system on the door and to make copies of keys like this in this country are I believe illegal, without proper documentation. Does Portugal have this law? I have read mentioned that it is hard to get this kind of key cut in Portugal and only a few places would be able to do it, so I wonder if the PJ have gone to these places and asked if anyone has been in to have a key like this cut?

I think you have to cut Mrs Fenn some slack here Clairesy, she is an elderly lady who has been scared in her own apartment by an intruder and then terrorised with journalists etc banging on her door at all hours and telephoning her. She should not be subjected to this kind of thing, it is wrong and if she were my mother I would be very angry. From the video clip it looks like she is becoming very distressed and this is very dangerous in elderly people and no one should have been questioning her like that is such a place.
Mrs Fenn however, did not say she heard Madeleine crying, I believe she said she heard A child crying and of course it is known that Jes Wilkins and Bridget O'Donnell had a child that was very fractious and would not stop crying for a couple of days, in fact at one point the child was crying so much that Jes took him/her for a walk in the buggy to try and pacify him/her. The Wilkins/O'Donnell apartment is on the same floor as Mrs Fenn's and very near to her, in fact Bridget O'Donnell has said that they could look down on the McCann's apartment from their apartment and she did say she was glad that they were never allocated that particular apartment. So on a quiet evening sound travels, of course it does, or Mrs Fenn would not have heard any child crying. But who is to say that the child Mrs Fenn heard crying was not the child of Jes Wilkins and Bridget O'Donell? In fact in all probability, this was the child Mrs Fenn heard crying, yet this story has been unashamedly used by Goncalo Amaral to make it look like it is something it is not and to used to blacken the names of Kate and Gerry McCann.

The scent and the use of dogs.

The Portuguese dogs were brought in to try and track Madeleine down, one is reported to have picked up her scent an traced it right to the small local supermarket, where the dog lost the trail.

• Where is this supermarket located?
  
• Is it in the same direction that JT saw the man carrying the child?
  
• If it was could this be where Madeleine was placed inside the van or car?
  
• Has the CCTV been checked?
  
• Is there any storm drains present there?
  
• or entrances to the tunnels?
  
• Is there a basement that goes with this shop there?
  
• If so is there an outside delivery chute/trap door etc?
  
• Have all these places been searched?
  
• Further, if present, have they been swept for Madeleine's DNA?

Eddie and Keela=These dogs are good but they are usually used to track places where there are actual bodies, they are not that accurate is tracing places where bodies may have been, especially when there is a big time lapse in them being used.
As the scent of death is allegedly been found on Kate's clothing and CC, we have to ask how it could have got there and there are several plausible explanations for this.

• Kate said she was in contact with 6 bodies prior to her holiday
  
• This is easily checked, have the PJ checked it out?

If someone is hysterical with grief or distraught, what is the most natural thing to do? We put our arms around them and try to cmfort them and get them to calm down, I would anyway. This probably happened many times over the days after Madeleine vanished.

Who did the hugging? Police? tThe clergy? Priest? Who? And is there any likelihood that they could have been in contact with a dead body? Has this been checked out?

One of the paedophiles that was said to have been in the area of PDL at the time Madeleine vanished, was found dead in Swiss woods near where a five year old Swiss girl was found murdered some weeks after Madeleine disappeared. His body was found close the backpack belonging to the little Swiss girl Ylenia, the backpack had the little girls clothes folded inside, this man's DNA was said to be on them.
He is said to have collected dead animals in jars! Could the dogs have mistaken this scent?
Also the little Swiss girl's DNA was found on the mattress inside his white van. A white van was reported to have been seen parked near apartment 5a in the days before Madeleine's disappearance.
If (IF) this man is a murderer, what is the likelihood that he had done this before he *may* have abducted Madeleine and the scent being on his clothes?
It was said that the intruder hid in the wardrobe, did the scent on his clothes transfer scent on the clothes hanging in the wardrobe? Were any of Kate's clothes in that wardrobe? If this man picked Madeleine up he touched Cuddle Cat, this would account for the scent on the toy. How do we know he did not also hide behind the sofa? How do we know he did not have an accomplice?

These are all plausible explanations.

What I want to know is if the PJ have checked all this out? Have they had this man's van swept for Madeleine's DNA? Have they been in touch with the Swiss police and forensics teams that examined this van? Have the Swiss got any unaccounted for DNA from this van? Has anyone thought of checking this van for a DNA match to Madeleine?

This information we have been given so far has posed more questions than it has answered. Hopefully, this will be one line of questioning that the McCann's get their teams of investigators to check out.