Re: 'The English Gag' An Introduction.

by Tinkerbell43 Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:26 am

Clairesy, I wholeheartedly agree with you. IMO Freedom of expression should not be put before the human rights of a person.

Am I right in saying The McCanns have also included the rights of Madeleine, Sean and Amelie in their case ?

by clairesy Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:42 am

Hi tinks,

yes that's right,the mccanns are suing not only for Madeleine's rights but also for sean and amilies and their own rights.They are suing as a family.
The twins need protecting to from all these lies and smears and i agree with what they are doing.I think i would do exactly the same as them.After all i wouldn't want my children to grown up thinking i had killed their big sister.One day the twins and Madeleine will get hold of some of this information.And for their sakes i hope they are sheltered from the worst of the abuse that as been aimed at their mammy and daddy.

Some people say they are the voice of Madeleine. Well to be quiet honest with you, i cant see Madeleine thanking them when she is old enough to actually understand everything that as gone on here.

Some people are only out to cause more hurt.They have a witch hunt against the mccanns.They are out to hurt the mccanns to accuse them.And.......... they are doing just that.Hurting the mccanns,all of them....Madeleine mccann,sean mccann,amilie mccann and gerry and kate mccann.

'The English Gag' An Introduction. - Page 3 442460

'The English Gag' An Introduction. - Page 3 442460

How can they say are Madeleine's voice?

by dianeh Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:44 am

Yes, Tinks, quite correct.

Sabot, Im sorry if I misunderstood, but from a corruption prevention / professional standards viewpoint in their police force, Portugal do not appear to be using a world's best practice model. That is what I am saying. Not accusing the entire police force (or even a majority, or even a culture of it) of being corrupt. Corruption exists everywhere and mechanisms must be put in place for reporting of it and investigating of it, outside of the pressure of the corruption itself.

by Sabot Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:59 am

Oh Dear, I do so agree with what you both say. No one could be more angry than I have been. But it is such a wasted emotion. Beyond finding the child, there is nothing we can do. Getting upset about this posturing moron is entirely by the by.

What he is doing at the moment, isn't even important. People are still looking.

And if you seriously want to look at what goes on in Forums, then just laugh. It is all too bloody funny for words. But it is all bringing Madeleine to the forefront. I don't care how they do it, just so long as they do.

by Rosie Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:05 am

Sabot wrote:Come on, Rosie. Portugal isn't the only place. And The PJ aren't the only people. It has just gotten a bit too centred in our minds. Nothing bad is going to happen to The McCanns. That fear is long over.

I now want to see some sort of justice for Leonor Cipriano, which I do believe will happen.

I will long wish for justice for Michael Cook. Which will never happen.

I have seen some pretty diabolical miscarriages of justice in France.

It is all to do with who we place our faith in. Most of which goes entirely unnoticed.

There is something very sick about any society that does not pay attention to it's Police Force.

Sorry. I am a bit pissed off at the moment. Goncalo Amaral will lose, but only because he never paid attention to what might have been. His failure is unacceptable in a civilised society.

He will lose. And I will feel sorry for his stupidity.

I think you misunderstand me, I never implied that Portugal was the only place, but we were talking about Portugal. What I am saying is that the abduction of Madeleine could be connected with the Casa Pia scandal in some way and yes we do have scandals of our own and we used to be dreadful in the way they were brushed under the carpet, but thankfully this has changed a great deal. We also have corrupt police and corrupt politicians, all countries do, we have our share of paedophiles too, it is all true. However, some of the Portuguese posters I have read just refuse point blank to admit they have these problems and if they do not admit them, then they do get brushed under the carpet and nothing is ever done about it, it is a dangerous precedent. (Note I said some Portuguese posters, because I do not mean all, we have some excellent Portuguese posters)
If people cannot admit they have a problem then they will never fix that problem.

I disagree with you about Goncalo Amaral, I believe this failing of his is down to a little more than because he never paid attention, they were not just failures, that man has made every single mistake under the sun and if you believe he was this cop of great experience, then logically you have to ask why he made so many mistakes.

Amaral tried to frame the McCanns on circumstantial evidence and even that was totally ridiculous, but if you look at the circumstantial evidence that exists around Amaral, then by his own reckoning there is enough to have him investigated at the least and at worse charged with criminal negligence and maybe a lot worse than that!

As for Casa Pia, it worries me greatly that someone involved previously with that childrens home has made the allegation that the abuse continues.

by Sabot Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:36 am

dianeh wrote:Yes, Tinks, quite correct.

Sabot, Im sorry if I misunderstood, but from a corruption prevention / professional standards viewpoint in their police force, Portugal do not appear to be using a world's best practice model. That is what I am saying. Not accusing the entire police force (or even a majority, or even a culture of it) of being corrupt. Corruption exists everywhere and mechanisms must be put in place for reporting of it and investigating of it, outside of the pressure of the corruption itself.

So what are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about the last two corrupt cases in Angleterre? Both of which were found to be totally wrong and utterly unproven. Two men who were not only persued but even convicted on false evidence. I think that Britain needs to get it's act together. It isn't just Portugal. How dare we sit here and castigate Portugal when we can't even get it right in our own country.

Don't worry about Amaral. He is a dead duck by his own hand. But I think you somewhat miss the point. This isn't a trial of The McCanns. It is a trial about whether or not someone has a right to say what he thinks, and whether or not he has a right to libel another person in the process.

Have his written words libelled another person? I don't know because I read very little of his skanky book. I found his reconstruction very much more interesting, and much more damning, because the stupid man so blatantly abused what actually happened, and what can be seen in The Files.

I suppose that I just want you all to understand that this is not a condemnation of The McCanns. It is a verification of what is, or is not Free Speech. If the arsehole wins, he will only have won a right to say what he likes. What he says does not have to be true.

by Sabot Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:53 am

Rosie, I never thought that Amaral was anything other than appalling. I just don't know why.

He could have been stupid, or he could have been corrupt. Would it now make any difference?

Two and a half years on, he certainly isn't going to point anyone in the right direction.

I suppose that I just want you all to understand that this court case will not find The McCanns guilty, no matter which way it goes.

God, I feel as though I am fighting in the dark here. Don't any of you understand that Amaral has a right to push his luck? He has a right to be taken to court. He has a right to lose. Or win.

by jean Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:08 pm

The only problem with your thinking Sabot is that if by any chance Ameral does win, it will be a severe blow to the McCanns. Even though WE know that he has only won the freedom of speech, others will take it that he is right in what he has said about the McCanns, and more importantly the fate of Madeleine, and the McCanns will be back to square one, having people thinking that Madeleine is dead. Therefore, the search for Madeleine will continue to be insignificant. If the case is won by the McCanns the lay people of Portugal may then think that perhaps Goncalo Ameral was wrong in what he has said, and there is a chance of finding Madeleine alive. That is the importance of this case. He must not be allowed to win.

by jean Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:15 pm

Also, if he loses the PJ should take another look into his motives, together with the other 'fella' involved in the Joanna Cipriano case, and perhaps they will then see what we all can see on this forum that further questions should be asked, and investigations made. It is as obvious as the nose on your face that they are both involved up to their ugly necks. Then perhaps Madeleine will be found, and for the first time in 2.5 years we can all relax when she has been returned to her rightful home. Madeleine McCann will remain missing until Goncalo Ameral x mate is investigated thoroughly.

by Sabot Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:40 pm

jean wrote:Also, if he loses the PJ should take another look into his motives, together with the other 'fella' involved in the Joanna Cipriano case, and perhaps they will then see what we all can see on this forum that further questions should be asked, and investigations made. It is as obvious as the nose on your face that they are both involved up to their ugly necks. Then perhaps Madeleine will be found, and for the first time in 2.5 years we can all relax when she has been returned to her rightful home. Madeleine McCann will remain missing until Goncalo Ameral x mate is investigated thoroughly.

You don't actually think he is going to win, do you?

I was talking hypothetically.

by dianeh Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:35 pm

Sabot

[So what are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about the last two corrupt cases in Angleterre? Both of which were found to be totally wrong and utterly unproven. Two men who were not only persued but even convicted on false evidence. I think that Britain needs to get it's act together. It isn't just Portugal. How dare we sit here and castigate Portugal when we can't even get it right in our own country

We will continue to advertise the corruption, or the image of corruption. That is all we can do. I would do the same thing in my country. The difference is that here, I can write to my MP, and to newspapers etc. We can only use this forum and other justice type forums to highlight this.

There are people in Portugal doing the same thing. What do you think that Marcos Coreia is doing? That is why we support him. But our actions are limited by not being from Portugal and not speaking Portuguese.

But just because we cannot do a lot, doesnt mean we should not acknowledge a problem exists and publicise that problem. If that was the case (do nothing because we cant affect it), then no activist would ever even try to make a difference.

We all have miscarriages of justice. Look at Lindy Chamberlain,one of the great miscarraiges of justice of all time. But instead of burying our collective heads in the sand, here in Australia we now have an Anti Curruption Commission in each state to deal with corruption at all levels of govt and the public service. And it has been VERY effective.

Does Britain acknowledge that they have got it wrong, that they have some corruption in the police and that miscarriages of justice do occur? Yes, of course they do, which is why a complaint can be made against the police, and that mad idiot Bennett is keen on doing so.

Try to raise the same sort of complaints in Portugal, and see how far you get.

No country is perfect, and we all have corruption. It is how we deal with it that is at issue.

by clairesy Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:21 pm

So what are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about the last two corrupt cases in Angleterre?Both of which were found to be totally wrong and utterly unproven. Two
men who were not only persued but even convicted on false evidence. I
think that Britain needs to get it's act together. It isn't just
Portugal. How dare we sit here and castigate Portugal when we can't
even get it right in our own country.

Angleterre?? isn't that the french name for England?

What cases do you refer to sabot?

by Pedro Silva Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:43 pm

Sabot, take a deep breath, calm down ok? Relax.

by Catkins Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:59 pm

jean wrote:The only problem with your thinking Sabot is that if by any chance Ameral does win, it will be a severe blow to the McCanns. Even though WE know that he has only won the freedom of speech, others will take it that he is right in what he has said about the McCanns, and more importantly the fate of Madeleine, and the McCanns will be back to square one, having people thinking that Madeleine is dead. Therefore, the search for Madeleine will continue to be insignificant. If the case is won by the McCanns the lay people of Portugal may then think that perhaps Goncalo Ameral was wrong in what he has said, and there is a chance of finding Madeleine alive. That is the importance of this case. He must not be allowed to win.

Thats my worry too Jean...................We know how things get twisted......and if Amaral were to win (I don't think he can)....People might think that he was correct and Madeleine was dead and therefore stop looking or showing interest in her case.

by Rosie Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:10 am

Sabot wrote:Rosie, I never thought that Amaral was anything other than appalling. I just don't know why.

He could have been stupid, or he could have been corrupt. Would it now make any difference?

Two and a half years on, he certainly isn't going to point anyone in the right direction.

I suppose that I just want you all to understand that this court case will not find The McCanns guilty, no matter which way it goes.

God, I feel as though I am fighting in the dark here. Don't any of you understand that Amaral has a right to push his luck? He has a right to be taken to court. He has a right to lose. Or win.

Hi Sabot, we do understand that this case is about, unfortunately I think that it is Amaral that doesn't seem to understand what it is all about, or why the McCanns have taken him to court.

The McCanns are taking Amaral to court to see if they can get a permanent injunction preventing Amaral from selling this book and from further profiting out of it. They are taking action over his entirely unfounded and grossly defamatory claims that Madeleine is not only dead, but that they were somehow involved in concealing her body. They are also taking this action because they claim that Amaral's book has grossly interfered for the search for their daughter, by making people believe that she is dead so they stop looking for er, or do not tell what they know, they are taking action on behalf of Madeleine, Sean and Amelie, as well as themselves. They are offended by the obscene profits that Goncalo Amaral is making out of their missing daughter's situation and her name.

So in a sense it is a kind of judgement about them, if by chance they do lose this action, do you think that people like Amaral and Bennett etc will not use that loss to the maximum? We all know what they and others will say, this is why I thin it is an extremely brave action being taken by Kate and Gerry, one that takes a great deal of pluck and nerve.

I believe the the McCanns tried to ignore him, as long as he and his garbage stayed in Portugal, but once he and it started escaping all over the internet and Amaral planned to tour Europe and the rest if the world peddling his lies, they thought enough is enough and they had to do something.

For his part, this is not about harming the search for Madeleine, it is not about how his lies, insinuations, smears and innuendo have actually hurt and caused this family so much pain, it is about him thinking he has the God given right to write what he knows to be utter fabrication down and then sell it in a book and make money and profit out of his own lies.

This will hurt the McCanns, it has already hurt their daughter by completely harming the search for her in Portugal. right from the word go Amaral started to let it be known he thought they had killed Madeleine, right from the first week when all the world thought there was still an intensive search for Madeleine in Portugal, there wasn't, it was scaled down and it was scaled down on Amaral's say so. It is more than stupidity, I think he done this on purpose in order to allow the abductors to get away with Madeleine.

As for corruption in Britain, of course there is, would never say there isn't, but one thing I have never seen is a policeman sacked from an investigation he had totally and utter cocked up, be given the sacked from that investigation, be demoted from his position, take early retirement and then write a book cashing in on the misfortune of his victim, including in that book lies and deceit and disinformation and to actually publish that book while the investigation was continuing. If there was such a case, you can rest assured there would have been a huge fuss and outcry about it and my voice would have been among them.

You ask what can be done? There is plenty that can be done and believe me it has been done, or it is being done, we work within the confines of the law, so anything we tend to do does take a time, but this does not mean to say we are not doing it. I know that I have had some help from the most unexpected places in all of this, which can help restore faith in the human race. We don't just sit in front of a monitor each day chuntering on and not doing anything, we are actually very active.

I know it is daunting, it is hard to get people in authority to listen to you and take notice and actually do something, but this doesn't mean that we shouldn't try.

One thing I have to say though, you said about Portugal, this is not an attack on Portugal. But we have to do something when the Portuguese police themselves say they are not going to do anything, or refuse to take anyone phoning in with information seriously and end up binning it all. I am here fighting this because I think Madeleine and her parents were the innocent victims of some sort of corruption and they have asked for support and I want to give that support in any way that I possibly can. It would have been exactly the same if this happened n Wales, or Scotland, or Cornwall and a seemingly corrupt police officer was behaving in this despicable fashion, in actual fact because there would have been no language barrier so the furore would have been a lot worse.

Amaral does not have the right to do what he is doing and he is behaving as if he has the God given right to do it and not only that, he is also behaving as if the McCanns have no right what so ever to challenge him to have him stopped from selling his lies.

I do not think there is a hope in hell of him winning this case and it doesn't matter who he brings as witnesses, because he cannot prove that Kate and Gerry McCann harmed their daughter, if he could, or if the PJ could then we would not be having this discussion now because the McCanns would probably be on trial for murder. Portugal's own attorney general has ruled that there is no case to answer and there is no proof at all of any wrongdoing, so how on earth does Amaral think he is going to win this case? He may think this case is about whether he has the right to say the things that he has in his books, TV and radio interviews, in newspapers and magazines etc and in his reconstruction which was based on a complete tissue of his lies, but it isn't, in my opinion the whole case rests on whether he can prove any of what he has written, if he cannot, then it is a clear cut case of libel and Kate and Gerry will have proven their case, his book will permanently be injuncted and I would not be at all surprised if there is not an extra application to the court case based on the "English gag", so his little ploy of delaying the start of this case, will backfire on him.

You ask if it would make a difference if he was stupid or corrupt? I think of course this would make a difference, stupid, although as ignorance is no defense may not make that much difference to the out come of the case, stupid I could just about tolerate, but corruption? to knowingly charge this couple and put them through 2 and a half years of hell, when you knew they were totally innocent and what is more knew where their daughter was taken and then to blatantly cash in on a situation you helped create? Of course there is a difference, stupid may get him a suspended sentence, however corruption on top of perverting the course of justice, has to earn him a very long prison sentence.

by Sabot Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:07 pm

Sorry folks, I didn't bail out. I just lost my Internet connection.

I think Amaral is wrong, but I've only read parts of his book, and I wouldn't trust my opinion of a translation anyway. So I don't know to what extent he has actually libelled The McCanns. I am simply talking from a point of view of law. Just how careless has he been?

by Cath Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:39 am

Sabot take a look at the last chapter of his book and you'll see.
Though I think the interviews he's been giving and the columns he's been writing are worse. Or the documockery.

He's started careful (with the book) and when he didn't get challenged, he got bolder and bolder.

by Rosie Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:04 am

I also think although I am not 100% sure, that the injunction they are seeking to make permanent, will actually prevent him from speaking about this and from libelling them further in public, although I have no idea how this would stand up in the rest of Europe and the world, but they do have some kind of injunction in place preventing him speaking about the book in other country's too.

I believe there are several parts of the book that allowed the Portuguese judge to rule on this book, let us not forget also, that I believe the judge hearing this case, is the same judge that ruled on the temporary injunction!

by Pedro Silva Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:56 am

I agree with you Rosiepops.

by maria Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:56 am

So I don't know to what extent he has actually libelled The McCanns

Sabot

I'vent read the book, but let's take his word for it, he does not create any new facts, findings, indices (if he did, he would be libelling, right?). So, theses very facts, indices, findings, presented to public prosecutors, led them to the conclusion that they could not reach even the conclusion about the type of crime that was commited, let alone who committed it. But Amaral expresses the opinion that Madeleine was killed (by accident or not) in the apartment and her death was concealed by the parents. He published this opinion. He went on producing a video stating the same. He gave interviews one after the other, reinforcing even enlarging his views. He did all this with all the weight of a former PJ inspector and who has been in charge of the investigation

Now, Sabot, this is libelling, lying, slandering. No doubt whatsoever about it.

by bluj1515 Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:25 am

There seems to be some confusion with libel, that you can libel more or less, that you can wipe the libel clean from the book and release the parts of the book that aren't libel. It's a bit of an abstract concept, but you can't do that. Once you commit any libel, you have committed libel.

The concept of the book is a defense of Amaral's thesis, a thesis rejected by the Portugal's Attorney General, that the McCanns were responsible for the death of their daughter, covered it up, and disposed of her body. This central thesis runs throughout the book and is the very reason for the book. It is libel and it cannot be taken from the book. The combined effect of Amaral's book, statments, and interviews is a libel.

There is no such thing as the "extent" of the libel for purposes of innocent or guilty of libel. That would only be taken into consideration for measuring the libelled person's damages. For example, people with "bad" reputations will get less money than someone with a "good" reputation even if the same libel was committed against them, because the law considers that the person with the "bad" repuation has less of a reputation to have damaged.

And Maria is right, his opinion matters more because he is a former PJ inspector, the former head of the investigation, and there is weight unfortunately given to his remarks and beliefs.

by Rosie Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:00 am

And Maria is right, his opinion matters more because he is a former PJ inspector, the former head of the investigation, and there is weight unfortunately given to his remarks and beliefs

I can understand this and it is very true, but where he is going to fall down too, is that the McCanns had a very good reputation, no previous convictions, nothing bad at all, in fact good, they are both doctors employed in one of the caring professions, so when Amaral is found guilty, the extent of the damages awarded against him have to be extensive. I understand that the McCanns have asked for £1 million and Amaral's assets have been frozen to that extent.

by bluj1515 Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:11 am

Rosiepops wrote:
And Maria is right, his opinion matters more because he is a former PJ inspector, the former head of the investigation, and there is weight unfortunately given to his remarks and beliefs

I can understand this and it is very true, but where he is going to fall down too, is that the McCanns had a very good reputation, no previous convictions, nothing bad at all, in fact good, they are both doctors employed in one of the caring professions, so when Amaral is found guilty, the extent of the damages awarded against him have to be extensive. I understand that the McCanns have asked for £1 million and Amaral's assets have been frozen to that extent.

Yes, the McCanns are only asking for the profits of the book. They would be entitled to a great deal more for what he has done and frankly are showing restraint.

by Rosie Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:27 am

Just shows their dignity Bluj, they really are the most calm dignified people under extreme pressure and all the while living with the worse torment possible.

In fact they have always showed their dignity and respect for themselves and others, this is why they earn it back, pity Amaral cannot grasp that context!

by bluj1515 Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:56 am

He truly is a disgrace... was watching the video of him coming to the courthouse again...the way his eyes lit up, the jovial arrogant way he tips his chin at the camera.. while the McCanns yearn for their little girl and feel pierced to the core to even be in Portugal where she went missing and where Amaral engineered the public against them

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