Re: 'The English Gag' An Introduction.

by maria Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:27 pm

actually no i think he wrote a book about Madeleine called 'the star of Madeleine'

Actually, YES, he wrote two books, The star of Joana and The star of Madeleine. He left PJ on early retirement in order to 'gain his right to free speech' and write the book about Joana. In fact he left when Leonor's torture was going to surface. Does it ring a bell?

by Pedro Silva Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:32 pm

Yes, it does ring a bell.

by clairesy Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:05 pm

Like a leader of the pack..it rings far to many bells maria.He puts gonc on the Madeleine case to do exactly as he done on the joana case.

Two guys in the same force doing the same thing for the same reasons and i have always been baffled by the similarities in these two cases.Two separate families from separate parts of the world going through the same heartache just a few miles apart...with the same police force and with the same conclusions....that both sets of parents killed their babies or hid them in freezers until it was safe to move them and bury them.

And not one of these children as been found,no leads,no evidence,no dna,no forensics.Just two beautiful little girls who have mysteriously vanished into thin air,which may i add is impossible!!!(thats a FACT).

No evidence,no leads,no proper investigative work have concluded what happened to either Madeleine or joana yet these two police men have managed to write books stating what happened to them??

by maria Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:22 pm

Clairesy

And in both cases there is a macbre forgotten detail: fire, corpse burned out. In the case of Joana, it was the body that was hidden in an old car and then burned, (also someone who is a coal maker, from wood), in Madeleine's it was the animal crematorium.

by Rosie Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:56 pm

Paulo Cristovao wrote two books;

The Star of Joana

The Star if Madeleine

by Rosie Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:59 pm

I think I will write a book about the renowned criminologist that gets all his thesis from an American TV crime programme.

You can just imagine this prat Flores as an expert witness in court, when he is questioned on what he based his evidence, he would have to answer the CSI American TV programme.

And if Moita Flores has to quote Sherlock Holmes, Dr Watson and Galileo as some kind of proof of what Amaral is saying, then Amaral is in bigger trouble than even I think! it is pathetic

Someone needs to tell Moita Flores that Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson are *FICTIONAL* characters and Galileo was born in 1512 and Locard, would completely destroy Amaral's argument.

If this is all this new book has to offer, at best it will be totally discredited as a load of nonsense and at worse it will be laughed at by real criminologist and detectives.

by Pedro Silva Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:28 am

I agree with you Rosiepops, that is why I posted about fictional CSI and Moita.

by clairesy Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:18 am

Rosiepops wrote:Paulo Cristovao wrote two books;

The Star of Joana
The Star if Madeleine

and the so called star of both them books is cristivao.

and now gonc jumps on the bang wagon.Why not though??It worked in the joana case.That was until it was tried on the Madeleine case, but this case proved too much for the Portuguese to handle,the mccanns are no push over and Madeleine's abduction becomes the biggest news in recent history.Those responsible for abducting Madeleine were not expecting this much fuss,they probably thought after the media had died down and public interest died back the whole thing would be forgotten and Madeleine would be just another statistic.But that wasn't to be,they were wrong,this time they aint getting away with it and so after blaming the parents(yet again) they start the fight...lies smear books interviews programs news reports all stating Madeleine is dead and her parent hid her body.Why??IMO its because they have nothing else available to hide the truth, the truth that her parents are close to unveiling 'The English Gag' An Introduction. - Page 2 Icon_flower

by Rosie Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:22 pm

clairesy wrote:
Rosiepops wrote:Paulo Cristovao wrote two books;

The Star of Joana
The Star if Madeleine

and the so called star of both them books is cristivao.

and now gonc jumps on the bang wagon.Why not though??It worked in the joana case.That was until it was tried on the Madeleine case, but this case proved too much for the Portuguese to handle,the mccanns are no push over and Madeleine's abduction becomes the biggest news in recent history.Those responsible for abducting Madeleine were not expecting this much fuss,they probably thought after the media had died down and public interest died back the whole thing would be forgotten and Madeleine would be just another statistic.But that wasn't to be,they were wrong,this time they aint getting away with it and so after blaming the parents(yet again) they start the fight...lies smear books interviews programs news reports all stating Madeleine is dead and her parent hid her body.Why??IMO its because they have nothing else available to hide the truth, the truth that her parents are close to unveiling

Exactly right Clairesy. They may think they can get away with what they have done by creating subterfuge, disinformation and cold blooded framing these parents, when they know they had nothing to do with Madeleine's abduction at all, we ll they cannot. They bit off a bit more than they can chew this time and Amaral and his mate better be careful because they haven't a clue about what is being turned up in circles they do not even know exist!

by Sabot Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:09 am

But, you see, I find it very difficult to believe that The PJ would go to such lengths to make up a scenario rather than to conduct a proper investigations.

And the possibility of The McCanns involvement was stated on Forums almost from the day the abduction occured. Pursued rapidly by some Portuguese posters who could well have started the rumours in the first place.

It is a fact that most of The Portuguese translators disappeared overnight, after The Arguido Status was lifted. I have always found this to be very strange indeed. Members of The PJ, perhaps?

So, either certain members of The PJ are mind boggling twisted in favour of parental culpability, except for themselves, of course. In which case they should never have been policemen. Or, certain members of The PJ are directly involved in these abductions. There are no other explanations for what has followed.

Sorry, I always feel awful when I attack Portuguese people in general, because I know enough about Portugal and it's people, to know that the vast majority are good and decent. Sometimes we forget that the likes of Joana Morais and Brenda Ryan and Tony Bennett are a miniscule part of World Opinion. I doubt that they number in total, more than fifty persons.

by Catkins Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:44 am

Agree Sabot.........

by Guest Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:52 am

Brilliant post Sabot, puts things in perspective somewhat!!

by clairesy Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:56 am

So, either certain members of The PJ are mind boggling twisted in
favour of parental culpability, except for themselves, of course. In
which case they should never have been policemen. Or, certain members
of The PJ are directly involved in these abductions. There are no other
explanations for what has followed.

Hi sabot,

I think i sway towards the later part of that statement you posted.I believe certain members of the pj are involved in these abductions.I also believe that the casa pia scandal is far from over.There are many big people and names involved in that scandal and i still have the words of the ex governess going around in my head.She stated...''without a shadow of doubt the sexual abuse of children at casapia is still going on''

And i believe her,but nothing as been done..why??Because just like carlos silvino said when the scandal first come to light ..''they cannot touch me there are too many big people involved in this''

imo that statement sums it all up.

I think when Madeleine's abduction is solved it is going to rock the hell out of Portugal.I believe that's why certain @rssholes are trying to cover this abduction up.Its the biggest child abduction story in recent years,and they have bitten off more than they chew this time.They can run,but they cannot hide.The truth will prevail and those responsible will be found out.

by Sabot Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:01 am

Catkins wrote:Agree Sabot.........

Thanks, Catkins. But it is all very worrying. I sometimes wish that I was again the blind idiot of two and a half years ago. Although perhaps not that blind.

But it all brings to mind that Portugal is not the only place that needs to look at what sort of people they recruit into their Police Forces. There are so many things that are blatantly wrong, and it is the people who investigate that need looking at.

I am old enough to remember some past injustices that involved The Death Penalty which grieved me greatly. Hopefully a wrong can be righted, but never for those who were judicially murdered.

by Catkins Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:15 am

On the one hand ....I hate what these people are doing to Portugal's reputation . Then I think about how we were going to move over to Portugal without a clue about the Police Force/Government.........How naive?...I confess to just loving the Country and its people.....Now should I decide to move anywhere abroad, I would look more closely at how things are run......Having said that no Police force is perfect but Amaral and his mates have and are doing a great disservice to Portugal and it needs to be stopped and corrected...NOW !!

by Sabot Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:47 am

clairesy wrote:
So, either certain members of The PJ are mind boggling twisted in
favour of parental culpability, except for themselves, of course. In
which case they should never have been policemen. Or, certain members
of The PJ are directly involved in these abductions. There are no other
explanations for what has followed.

Hi sabot,

I think i sway towards the later part of that statement you posted.I believe certain members of the pj are involved in these abductions.I also believe that the casa pia scandal is far from over.There are many big people and names involved in that scandal and i still have the words of the ex governess going around in my head.She stated...''without a shadow of doubt the sexual abuse of children at casapia is still going on''

And i believe her,but nothing as been done..why??Because just like carlos silvino said when the scandal first come to light ..''they cannot touch me there are too many big people involved in this''

imo that statement sums it all up.

I think when Madeleine's abduction is solved it is going to rock the hell out of Portugal.I believe that's why certain @rssholes are trying to cover this abduction up.Its the biggest child abduction story in recent years,and they have bitten off more than they chew this time.They can run,but they cannot hide.The truth will prevail and those responsible will be found out.

First I would like to say that I spent some time in a children's home. It was a lovely place and I was very happy there. So not all children's homes are awful places.

As for Casa Pia and people in high places, I just don't know. But things do tend to point that way. I don't understand depravity, so I expect I will always have a problem with this.

I prefer to think that some policemen will always take the easy option, especially if it mirrors their own twisted opinions of people. They decide who they think is guilty and then they twist the evidence to suit themselves.
I suspect that they even think that what they do serves justice.
I suppose that they spend so much of their lives dealing with the dregs of society that they cease to think clearly.

I was a Store Detective for a while, and I could tell you more about how to shop lift than even experienced shop lifters could. I gave it up in the end because the only person I actually ever caught was an old man out shopping with his entire family who stole six packets of Selotape. Big bloody deal.
He begged me not to expose him, and I told him that he should be jolly well ashamed of himself. And then I walked away in disgust. And that was the end of my Store Detecting career.

I never caught a hardened shop lifter.

Sorry, I digressed a bit there, but I expect that you all understand what I mean

by Sabot Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:06 am

Catkins wrote:On the one hand ....I hate what these people are doing to Portugal's reputation . Then I think about how we were going to move over to Portugal without a clue about the Police Force/Government.........How naive?...I confess to just loving the Country and its people.....Now should I decide to move anywhere abroad, I would look more closely at how things are run......Having said that no Police force is perfect but Amaral and his mates have and are doing a great disservice to Portugal and it needs to be stopped and corrected...NOW !!

Don't let this nonsense put you off. Portugal is a lovely country, and I wish that I could afford to live there. I was there several times, on holiday with friends of mine who owned and still own a house there, at the time of The Revolution. I travelled down by car from Roscoff on one occasion when we got jumped on by a gun wielding bunch of conscripts in the middle of the night. I supposed that they were Communists because no one actually knew what was going on at the time. But I have to admit to thinking that it was all a bit of a laugh. The rest of my party had an instant nervous breakdown and expected to be shot. I offered our Passports which these brave soldiers obviously couldn't even read. And we all went on our way and had a lovely holiday yet again.

None of this rubbish is in the minds of normal Portuguese people.

Casa Pia will have to sort itself out. Along with a few British childrens homes. I only have the motivation to defend The McCanns. For the moment.

by Rosie Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:22 am

The thing is that Casa Pia and Madeleine and Joana could be connected in some way. I have seen a huge document concerning Casa Pia and it was well translated and if one thing I saw on there and if I understood it correctly, then there is cause for concern. I am so cross with myself because I lost the document over something silly mistake of mine and I have tried to get it back but unsuccessful.

Of Portugal I tend to think that the majority of people are really good honest and decent, just like in in most other countries, but there is an awful lot wrong with the way their police and judicial services are run.
As with most things like this, it is the people that have to rise up and stop this kind of widespread corruption, I just do not think they have the appetite to do this yet but truly believe they will at some point in the future.

With regard to the police taking the easy way out and not bothering, I do not think it is like this, there are many good honest PJ, there have to be, but I think they are downtrodden and scared to speak out, they know what is happening but are just too afraid to speak out.
I think Amaral was a thug and a bully and he ruled his subordinates, he bullied and intimidated and no way would they ever go against him and they are too afraid to speak out now for fear of losing their jobs and of being pulled into this sad affair.

by clairesy Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:47 am

Casa Pia will have to sort itself out. Along with a few British
childrens homes. I only have the motivation to defend The McCanns. For
the moment.

Good for you. Thankfully not everyone feels that way.Mind you the way the children in that home have been ignored over the years i wouldn't say you were alone.

by Sabot Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:58 am

Come on, Rosie. Portugal isn't the only place. And The PJ aren't the only people. It has just gotten a bit too centred in our minds. Nothing bad is going to happen to The McCanns. That fear is long over.

I now want to see some sort of justice for Leonor Cipriano, which I do believe will happen.

I will long wish for justice for Michael Cook. Which will never happen.

I have seen some pretty diabolical miscarriages of justice in France.

It is all to do with who we place our faith in. Most of which goes entirely unnoticed.

There is something very sick about any society that does not pay attention to it's Police Force.

Sorry. I am a bit pissed off at the moment. Goncalo Amaral will lose, but only because he never paid attention to what might have been. His failure is unacceptable in a civilised society.

He will lose. And I will feel sorry for his stupidity.

by Sabot Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:17 am

clairesy wrote:
Casa Pia will have to sort itself out. Along with a few British
childrens homes. I only have the motivation to defend The McCanns. For
the moment.

Good for you. Thankfully not everyone feels that way.Mind you the way the children in that home have been ignored over the years i wouldn't say you were alone.

Clairesy, We can't take on all of the ills of the world. We don't even know what happened that sweet child. I suspect that she was taken for whatever wrong reasons. But I hope to God that who ever they are, that they will not abuse her. They could well be caught one day, and so I hope that Madeleine is so high prophile that they would not dare to do any harm to her. This could stand them in good stead. And so, I hope.

Either that. Or she is already dead. In which case it won't matter any more.

by dianeh Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:28 am

Sabot,

no one denies that corruption, incompetence, nepotism etc do not exist in the police of other countries. But it is how we deal with it that is the issue.

In Australia we have had our own fair share of corrupt police, with the latest being some high up officer in Victoria who gave confidential details of an investigation to a member of the underworld. This was only last year. Notice that it is public. Notice that it was dealt with initially by our anti corruption commission, and then by the courts.

We are constantly on the look out for corruption. As are the British police. Look at their policy on officers with large debts.

The Cipriano case should have been the trigger for an internal investigation by the PJ into the processes that went on. Especially after one of the judges dissented and stated in the judgement that Leonor was innocent. It is clear that something was very wrong with the process, yet no review was done to improve those processes. And now it looks as though the conviction is unsafe.

It is clear that if the PJ will not tackle its own internal problems, then the govt needs to set up a commission to deal with, as we have done in Australia. There are options that the Portuguese govt can choose from. But what is important is that the people of Portugal have confidence that corruption will be found and dealt with in the PJ. And at the moment, there is no confidence at all.

by clairesy Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:57 am

No Portugal isnt the only place sabot,however Madeleine is a British citizen and has been abducted in Portugal which is why Portugal as become focus of attention here.And given the things we have learned regarding their policing and laws etc,i would agree with Rosie and others here in saying that THIS ISN'T the only case that as been botched by the pj...and there are folk out there who have come forward to state the wrongs that are going on,including police and judges.Infact one judge condemned the pj for their work on the investigation into Madeleine.He stated that they were wrong in accusing the mccanns and that the investigation had been botched by the pj from the very start.

He actually ordered the focus on the mccanns to be dropped by gonc however gonc wouldn't listen and subsequently lost his position as head d/ckhead in the investigation after he shot his mouth off and accused the British police of god knows what!!

There is no doubt in my mind that most Portuguese poeple are infact very very nice poeple and live and lead normal happy lives.

But like other countries Portugal as its faults and the mccanns have become center of attention amid the most horrific of crimes with a botched investigation that doesn't seem to be singled out in Portugal.This isn't the first time a child as vanished into thin air in Portugal with the investigation into their abduction being botched and condemned by others..It isn't the first time people have come forward to say how scared and frightened they have been whilst in custody of the pj.It isn't the first time the pj have tried to blackmail witnesses either with beatings or verbal emotional torture.It isnt the first time the pj have been accused of corruption or involvement.

No one is saying they are wrong to have not found Madeleine.IF THEY HAD INVESTIGATED IT PROPERLY,after all not all crimes and missing persons are found(sadly).
The wrong in their investigation came when it was evident they had failed to carry out the most basic of investigative measures.They failed Madeleine from the very first second they got to the scene.And then it was found out that they had also ignored(not failed to find) but ignored significant leads in the investigation because THEY FELT Madeleine was dead.They felt the mccanns done it,and therefore Madeleine's abduction was swept under the carpet and instead we were faced with her murder,or an accident that was covered up by her mammy and daddy,and their friends.

sabot,you say this in an earlier post today.....

''But, you see, I find it very difficult to believe that The PJ would go
to such lengths to make up a scenario rather than to conduct a proper
investigations.''

Thats exactly what this about sabot.The reason they would make up a scenario in order to not investigate properly!! exactly!!!!! why would a person lie...is it to cover up the truth?.Why would they not conduct a proper investigation??Is it because they already know the answers to thing they would supposedly be investigating?

What would be the point in investigating something when you already know the answers?
IMO it is to throw poeple off the truth.

One thing for sure is this......no one can accuse the mccans of the same thing because those two heartbroken parents have most certainly carried out a proper investigation.They are still fighting to investigate every lead and every piece of evidence in their daughters abduction.Its a crying shame that they have been forced to do such a thing when they should be supported and comforted by police officers as THEY search for their missing child.No chance of that though because they fell victim along with Madeleine to what i believe is one of the most corrupt and sordid crimes in history,and like casapia.... and like joanna there is more than meets the eyes here.

sorry for the spelling i havent read over it.... ive just typed it out a bit quick.I have got my bath running and really want to go and chill out for half hour with my candles and crystal ball 'The English Gag' An Introduction. - Page 2 503613

'The English Gag' An Introduction. - Page 2 503613

by Sabot Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:53 am

You see. You have misunderstood me, both of you. And one of you quoted one small part of my post. This will not do.

I will not ever assume that all of Portugal is to blame. I just can't do this.

I don't even know what has motivated Goncarlo Amaral. It doesn't really matter. The McCanns and Robert Murat were found to be without fault. That was always the end of it for me.

What Goncalo Amaral is doing now was always irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he wins or loses. The McCanns won't be any more culpable. He hasn't proved anthing. And even if he wins, it is only to do with his right to say whatever he thinks.

I think he is a nasty, hidebound, twisted, perverted arsehole disgrace to humanity, but does that make me right? It is only my opinion.

The Portuguese Court will decide. I believe that they wiil do so fairly.

Yes, I do know that one of the judges in the Cipriano Case said that he thought that she had been beaten, and that she was innocent. I have been one of the very few people that has hollered about this. I also believe that her judgement would have proceeded without the likes of us.

Some of you don't really know me. I will persue, but it has to be on what I know to be true. I can't be doing with inuendo. This is what they do.

I would so love to tell you all that Amaral will lose, but I am not sure that he will. I haven't read any great swathes of his book, so I don't know if he actually libelled anyone. Can any of you tell the difference between libel and inuendo? Because I for certain sure cannot.

But does it matter anyway? No one is going to go racing in to arrest The McCanns. It is simply a matter of whether or not a man may have the right to state what he thinks. And whether or not he has libelled other people in the process.

It is all very simple.

by clairesy Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:07 am

Hi sabot,

perhaps we have misunderstood.

However again just where you say if he wins he wins,if he loses he loses,its simple...........

Madeleine's safety is at risk because of his lies though.They aint just opinions sabot.Yes its ok for gonc to have an opinion but he as to remain professional at all times.He cannot go writing books accusing two parents of murder or of concealing a child's death. He cannot encourage the world to believe them guilty just because its his opinion.

If he based his opinion on truth then fine.However how can his opinion be based on truth when its a fact the investigation wasn't carried out properly from the very start?

You see there are no facts or no evidence here because its all be botched.Botched by the man who states he knows exactly whats happened to Madeleine.If he knows what has happened to Madeleine then why the hell did he fail to find her?If he knows how this child died or who done it, then why the hell hasn't he come up trumps with the evidence?

He as written a fictional book based on what he believes to be fact.And he as sold it as fact.It isn't,its slanderous and as a result he as put Madeleine at further risk.By telling the world she is dead he as hindered the search fr her.People wont look for Madeleine if they dont think she is alive.There is no evidence to say she as been hurt,and no evidence to say she as been killed.Yet gonc as written a whole book on the matter??

Gonc wont win this case.

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