Supreme Court begins investigation

So, is this the re-trial we've been waiting for?

Souto Moura is very bad, he was Attorney General and he NEVER did or finished anything, he did now. Never too late. And it is a good sign that there is reference to the first trial and the doubts raised and maintained by Santos Carvalho.

Yes, Vee, it seems to be a re-trial

Thank Heavens, At last.

maria wrote:Souto Moura is very bad, he was Attorney General and he NEVER did or finished anything, he did now. Never too late. And it is a good sign that there is reference to the first trial and the doubts raised and maintained by Santos Carvalho.

Yes, Vee, it seems to be a re-trial

_______________

Maria .. I found the wording difficult to understand. Reference to this sentence .. what does this mean ? Is this a complete "start from the beginning trial" though .. and should that mean Amaral and the other PJ are called into Court again ?


The family of Joana Cipriano, with obvious exception of his uncle a murderer,

Wasn't Joana's uncle beaten up as well? I thought he had apologised to Leonor for lying about her because the police had beaten him.

I don't know if they are guilty or not, but the whole thing was a disgrace.

And I am none too happy about The Michael Cook Case either.

I understand what you are saying completely, only this time there is a significant difference, the world will be watching this trial and the prosecuting counsel will simply NOT be able to present such flimsy uncorroborated "evidence" and hearsay presented as "evidence".

Try not to worry Maria, remember at one time, Leonor even getting to this stage was just not possible and now thanks to her lawyer Dr Marcos Aragao Correia, Leonor is here and gets another chance in court to present her case, which is far stronger that the prosecuting counsels.

Have faith Maria, I think through Madeleine and the continued pressure and observations by the rest if the world of what is happening in Portugal, things are starting to change and "please God" that this is just one more tiny fragile step on the way, to a better Portugal.
Remember that at one time virtually everyone thought gaining a conviction against Goncalo Amaral was never going to happen? Well it did and I believe as I always believed that this is as a result of Portugal being thrust onto the world's stage by the abduction of Madeleine McCann.

Because of Madeleine's abduction, the world now knows and observes what happens in Portugal, I very much doubt, had it not been for the publicity surround little Madeleine, that Leonor would be getting another chance in court.

All I am saying is have faith, we have come this far and we do not intend sliding back now.

I have a strong feeling that there is going to be the biggest upset in this new trial of Leonor's, something will come out of this trial that has a damning effect on one person in particular and I believe that Leonor will walk free from prison.

Never has the saying: "Every journey begins with a single step" rings so very true as in this case.

Time to get behind Leonor, her family and her lawyer Dr Marcos Aragao Correia. Marcos a very unusual man, a lawyer with morals, scruples and integrity and someone who refuses to give in where injustice has occurred and he does this, not for money, he does this because he knows it is the right thing to do. His father Dr Antonio Aragao, I am sure would have been so proud of his son.

For those of you who do not know, Marcos' father who unfortunately died last year, was a very influential person in the culture of Portugal, it is not hard to see that the apple does not fall far from the tree. Here is a very interesting Wiki entry for Marcos's father.

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B3nio_Arag%C3%A3o

Marcos, please know that we on this forum and all those that refuse to give up on Madeleine, are behind Leonor Cipriano and you, on this very important next step. With your help, we will bring news of this trial as it happens, to make sure that the *TRUTH* gets told and not some spin, Amaral supporting papers want to put on it.

Although it has to be said, it does appear that the Portuguese press are beginning to turn against Goncalo Amaral. Not before time, are they finally waking up and realising, just what Goncalo Amaral has been doing? Something that many of us twigged right from the onset?

Please pass on our love, best wishes and support to Leonor and tell her she has many friends and supporters here in the UK.

Michael Cook and the Cipriano case have much in common.
Both had unbearable torture inflicted on them by corrupt PJ; both had trials that were an absolute cruel joke with unbelievable proceedings unfit for a court of law .. masses of wasted time & incalculable harm done via a complicit media.
Michael Cook (albeit a rogue) was abandoned by the Brit.Govt. to its eternal shame .. Realpolitik in action.
The McCann's had the courage to fight their corner, and had to. I think the McCann's are heroic and have blazed the way to show victims how to fight back & not be beaten down by endemic corruption.

This is a document acknowledging that the Supreme court allowed Leonor's appeal for a retrial, given that new (and old) circumstances emmerged or were not correctly considered during the first trial. In this process, a 'new' circumstance to be taken in consideration is the violent nature of Gonçalo Amaral which is duly exemplified. It is not the appeal about the torture, that one is still pending because of the lack of payement to the jurors and its number is 1503/04.3TAFAR, if I'm not mistaken.

The bit of the sentence which you have doubts about (The family of Joana Cipriano, with obvious exception of his uncle a murderer) is followed by an incorrect translation. It should in fact read 'The family of Joana Cipriano, with obvious exception of her uncle, a murderer, would like to congratulate the Insigne Counselours...'

Did I help?

Hi Maria ..

Why do they call the uncle a murderer ?

Marilyn wrote:Michael Cook and the Cipriano case have much in common.
Both had unbearable torture inflicted on them by corrupt PJ; both had trials that were an absolute cruel joke with unbelievable proceedings unfit for a court of law .. masses of wasted time & incalculable harm done via a complicit media.
Michael Cook (albeit a rogue) was abandoned by the Brit.Govt. to its eternal shame .. Realpolitik in action.
The McCann's had the courage to fight their corner, and had to. I think the McCann's are heroic and have blazed the way to show victims how to fight back & not be beaten down by endemic corruption.

This is why I suspect, that the British Consular staff went hot footing to The Algarve. They knew that Michael Cook had been let down, and they weren't about to let it happen again.

God knows what might have happened to The McCanns if they hadn't fought back, and been surrounded by people who supported them. The PJ couldn't beat them up, so they used dirty tricks instead.

I am sorry for any offense that my posts may cause to Portuguese posters. I believe that Portugal is a lovely country and that most Portuguese people are decent and caring. I have spent several holidays there and would so love to return.

He is a very violent person, has been in jail previously, drug adict, and signed a new confession stating he murdered Joana. Also, his family do think he is able of having done it.

I, personally, wouldn't do it. I still want to believe that Joana was indeed sold by her uncle and is alive somewhere, waiting for some help. I, personally, still think he did it and said he killed her because of two main reasons: he could keep the money and when in prison, inmates do not like child murderers but they like even less child molesters (sale is a sort of molestation, isn't it?). But this isn't a disagreement, just a difference of opinion. Does this make sense?

Sabot wrote:Wasn't Joana's uncle beaten up as well? I thought he had apologised to Leonor for lying about her because the police had beaten him.

I don't know if they are guilty or not, but the whole thing was a disgrace.

And I am none too happy about The Michael Cook Case either.

The uncle was reportedly beaten up, not only that, Joana's step father Alexandro Silva, was also tortured and forced to give incorrect accounts damning to Leonor, (his partner) at the time.

He since retracted that statement which he claims he was tortured to provide a confession and he has firmly stood by Leonor all of this time.

Goncalo Amaral, is due to stand trial in court accused of the torture of Alexandro Silva.

Did you know that the close "friend" of Goncalo Amaral, one Felicia Cabrita is also implicated here? She allegedly, went to the males in the Cipriano household offer her "services" for information.

There is on this forum the official documents (and their translations) of the character references and statements given in defence of Leonor Cipriano, they make for a very interesting read, to see what her friends and neighbours as well as her relatives have said about her, they make for interesting reading because of course, some people as well as newspaper spin, spun that the neighbors did not care for Leonor and that she mistreated Joana, this is actuality, turns out to be the exact opposite of the truth!

Remember that Felicia Cabrita was closely associated and rumoured to be a very "close friend" of Goncalo Amaral's, during Amaral's time as coordinator of the Madeleine McCann investigation, it was her that somehow got hold of copies of witness statements, witness addresses, and mobile and land-line telephone numbers.

In any other country, there would have been an official enquiry launched into how Felicia Cabrita got hold of this information, it is crucial that when giving witness statements, that people feel safe and able to do so without fear of being identified and reprisal and what they have said made public.

The questions that should have been asked and answered is;

1. Who gave this information to her?
   
2. And did she pay for this information?
   
3. If so how much money changed hands?
   
4. Who sanctioned the payment for this information at her newspaper?
   

Considering what has now come to light about the half million pound debts of the former coordinator of the policia judiciaria in charge of the Madeleine McCann investigation, these are very important questions, which require answers.

Yes .. Maria I follow. Still have grave doubts about the Uncle and any murder having taken place. He was also tortured as well ..
I think all of those who were under the physical control of the PJ & were beaten, have to be sequestered somewhere safe and have them tell everything without fear or coercion. The media have polluted the whole story .. it needs a good wash in public.

According to Joana Morais, half Portugal are in debt to the tune of half a million quid. Nothing strange about this.?

She is also largely responsible for the misinformation concerning The Cipriano Affair. She does her country no favours.

Well, Pedro already said he has no debts, I do have debts, not even near 1/4 of that, so I believe that we both belong to the other half Portugal ...

maria wrote:He is a very violent person, has been in jail previously, drug adict, and signed a new confession stating he murdered Joana. Also, his family do think he is able of having done it.

I, personally, wouldn't do it. I still want to believe that Joana was indeed sold by her uncle and is alive somewhere, waiting for some help. I, personally, still think he did it and said he killed her because of two main reasons: he could keep the money and when in prison, inmates do not like child murderers but they like even less child molesters (sale is a sort of molestation, isn't it?). But this isn't a disagreement, just a difference of opinion. Does this make sense?

Maria, this makes perfect sense to me, and I tend to broadly agree with you. I think that her uncle Joao Cipriano, was somehow complicit in Joana's abduction, but I just do not get the sense that he killed her. To my mind and of course I may be very wide of the mark, I think it more likely happened that Leonor, was persuaded that if she let her daughter go to a new and better home, that Joana, would have a very good future, an education and be well cared for, something she knew she would never be able to provide. I do also tend to believe that Leonor thought she was going to receive money for Joana, money that would help her provide a better life for her remaining children. I think she did this with a very heavy heart and before we rush to condemn her for this, first we have to put ourselves in the shoes of Leonor.
She was poor, destitute and could not provide for her children, she herself is uneducated, a simple minded woman, who is probably apt to seeing simple solutions to very intricate problems. To her this probably made perfect sense.

In the UK in our not too distant past, the poor of this country held similar views to that of Leonor Cipriano, it was quite common practice for children to be passed to other families and even to other relatives, sometimes at birth and sometimes later in the child's life. Sometimes these other families were childless and simply wanted children they could pass off as their own and at other times they wanted the child for unpaid slave labour, or to sell on to "others" for other despicable reasons.
Even during the war years and just post war years, girls who had become pregnant often gave birth in secret and the baby was passed off as the new baby of the mother of the real mother, or the child was given away to a childless relative within the family. The babies were simply registered to the new parents, as the new parents baby and there was no questions asked, administration has now move on of course and it is not possible to do this any longer.

Portugal now, reminds me of the times in this country that we allowed things like this to happen.

Anyway, I digress, but I think that something like this may have happened regarding Joana. Her uncle 'Joao Cipriano' probably took her and sold her to people, then came back and told Leonor that they did not give her the money for her daughter, that these people just killed Joana and buried her in the hills. The fact that Leonor and her uncle have confessed to murdering Joana, yet cannot say where the child's body lays, just does not stack up, and it is a huge flaw in the prosecuting counsel's argument, this is why we had this ridiculous excuse offered by Goncalo Amaral, that they killed Joana and cold blooded dismembered her, kept her in a very small fridge and fed her to the pigs.
this was accepted by the court,, yet there was NEVER any forensic or DNA evidence to back this up, they did not even have a match to Joana's blood group, from samples said to have been taken in the house and of course when Leonor's defense asked for these samples to be DNA tested and cross matched against Joana's blood group, they were told that the samples had been discarded, yet NO records were kept of any testing carried out on them!

Joao Cipriano, was a violent drug addict, who was addicted to hard drugs, his own mother believes he is capable of selling Joana, she has said that her son would do 'anything' to get drugs.

Here again there is a link to hard drugs, who was head of the drug squad in Portimao? Goncalo Amaral.

• Metodo 3 operative arrested and charged over *alleged* drug offenses.
  
• Joao Grade, Leonor's former lawyer was alleged to have tried to smuggle drugs into prison.
  
• Joao Cipriano was addicted to hard drugs.
  
• People have reported that Goncalo Amaral has allegedly threatened to have drugs planted on them, if they do not keep quiet.
  
• Felicia Cabrita, the journalist that obtained highly sensitive witness information, is allegedly addicted to hard drugs.
  
• Felicia Cabrita is said to be a close "friend" of Goncalo Amaral's.
  

If I was a detective in Portugal, I would start investigating this.

Goncalo Amaral has all these debts, it has emerged he had all of these debts prior to Madeleine's abduction. Goncalo Amaral has connections to drug dealers etc.

It is time for the Portuguese judiciaria to arrest Goncalo Amaral, make him a witness and try and get him to talk. He *MUST* be thoroughly investigated and Portugal can no longer turn a blind eye to this man and his antics.

I have no doubt that the vast majority of people in Portugal who have debts, make every attempt to pay them. Just like the rest of us.

Amaral didn't even try, not even from the vast proceeds of his book which he conveniently salted away into a Company. Along with his "Second Hand" Jaguar.

He could have paid his debts and been in the clear. But never mind, The McCanns will get it.

Sabot wrote:

Marilyn wrote:Michael Cook and the Cipriano case have much in common.
Both had unbearable torture inflicted on them by corrupt PJ; both had trials that were an absolute cruel joke with unbelievable proceedings unfit for a court of law .. masses of wasted time & incalculable harm done via a complicit media.
Michael Cook (albeit a rogue) was abandoned by the Brit.Govt. to its eternal shame .. Realpolitik in action.
The McCann's had the courage to fight their corner, and had to. I think the McCann's are heroic and have blazed the way to show victims how to fight back & not be beaten down by endemic corruption.

This is why I suspect, that the British Consular staff went hot footing to The Algarve. They knew that Michael Cook had been let down, and they weren't about to let it happen again.

God knows what might have happened to The McCanns if they hadn't fought back, and been surrounded by people who supported them. The PJ couldn't beat them up, so they used dirty tricks instead.

I am sorry for any offense that my posts may cause to Portuguese posters. I believe that Portugal is a lovely country and that most Portuguese people are decent and caring. I have spent several holidays there and would so love to return.

With the exception of spending many holidays in Portugal (I haven't), I tend to agree with Sabot here.

I wish to make it clear that when I say things about the *situation* in Portugal and when I say things about *some* people in Portugal, this is no way a reflection on all Portuguese people, I know and fully realise that the vast majority are good, decent and honest, they just want a decent country to live in and raise their families in, no different from any of us here in the UK and most other countries I suspect.

I agree about the Michael Cook case too, his constituency MP, Bob Spink, has raised Mr Cook's plight in the House of Commons, so Portugal was already known. I believe that Michael Cook suffered a dreadful miscarriage of justice, when one studies his trial, one's chin hits the metaphorical floor several times and we are left wondering, just how a blatant set up and framing of an innocent man could have been allowed and how did Michael Cook's defense lawyer allow this to happen? It does not appear to me that he defended Michael Cook to the best of his ability.

How did the British government allow this appalling treatment of a citizen of this country? They did notthing to help this man and it was an absolute disgrace.


I suspect again, skullduggery and covering for 'others' involved in Rachael's disappearance and murder. Michael Cook was a foreigner and a convenient person to frame for her murder. Less damage to the tourist industry.

Michael Cook proclaims his innocence to this day and I for one believe he is innocent, which of course leaves one child abductor and murderer free in Portugal, free to do it again and again and again!

Absolutely. I would add only another small doubt: João says that the people buying Joana didn't pay enough and he killed her, or something similar. Now, who was carrying the shovel to hide her body? Because it hasn't been left laying on the ground, it would be too dangerous, she would have most certainly be discovered very quickly. And nowhere in the confessions is a reference of him having any signs of hand digging, is there? Not even Amaral thought of that! Or were the other guys who had that shovel in the car? But then, not even João thought of that one!

In relation to what you say about Leonor, yes, that is my position too. I know, sometimes we seem to have double standards, one time we understand the 'sale' of a child other times we comdemn it. But it is absolutely true, I do understand these attitudes in certain layers of society. Leonor is a typical very low instruction, very low income, very low perspectives of future, very unhappy life. I understand that she, as a mother, would sacrifice herself to not having one of her children with her, if she thought that that child could have a better life with strangers and even get some extra money to help her remaining children.

I am not at all sure that the uncle is guilty. Who knows what the PJ might have forced him to say? The step father was beaten into saying that Leonor and her brother had confessed to him. The PJ could have made up a story and then fitted it around them all. There could well have been great fear of the PJ among these people.

Was there not a strange car see in the village at that time? No evidence has ever been produced to prove that the child is dead.

The accusations of sex between brother and sister were deemed "Unproven" by the trial Judges, Rosie.

Among other things. In fact there was very little that was deemed proven, and most of that was highly suspect.

Her lawyer at the time, seems to have done very little to defend her, and is now a big buddy of Amaral. He must have known that she had be beaten, so what the hell was he up to?

I have no idea what that lawyer was up to then at the time of Leonor and Joaoa trial, I know that he did precious little to keep Leonor out of prison.

Now that he (Joao grade) appeared on the guest list if his buddy Amaral's birthday bash and was reported as having dinner with the other one that was on trial in the Leonor Cipriano torture trial, one Pierre Paulo Cristovoa, it doesn't take much of a stretch of the Imagination! I wonder how long it will be before the Portuguese government wake up and realise the damage that is being done to Portugal's reputation abroad over the torture of Leonor Cipriano and the appalling investigation into missing Madeleine McCann? And the former policeman's efforts to frame her parents and make himself rich at Madeleine's expense?

It is not going to go away. I think they will be realising this any time soon.

I predict that one day very soon we will be treated to breking news that Amaral has been arrested.