Our own copy of the DVD

Yes, please, thank you both Mod and Maria.

I have particular issues around the Stephen Carpenter interview. I certainly wouldn't ask you to translate it, because it's monstrously long. But the 'translation' I've seen, so far, was a Google one that is shocking. And I would like confirmation of the answers to specific questions:


1. Did Carpenter, indeed, introduce Murat to Gerry and claim this was how Murat became a translator in interviews?

2. Did Carpenter's wife really hear someone whispering Madeline, Madeleine?

3. Did DC Fergassun (in that interview) say that the McCanns had framed many of the questions asked?

4. Did Carpenter give an interview to a BBC reporter in Portugal?

And also the arguido interview of Murat:

Does Murat corroborate Carpenter's account of how they met and his introduction to Gerry?

Cartas Rogatorias File 3
Pages 31 - 56

Many thanks.

Could I take this opportunity to say a big thank you to Maria for accepting to do the translations.

Maria I know this will be very time consuming, so please do not put yourself under pressure, anything you can manage will be greatly appreciated. You are a star.

Got it. I'm starting reading it, will try to answer your questions.

To start with, there is an earlier report which can be in the 'Processo' files as they refer to it and Carpenter has it as a 'memory aid' during this questioning.

Now on page 40 [I'll check later, this is a quote of the previous report, made much earlier, I think]

4078 -- "...Somewhere between nine fifteen and nine thirty we left Tapas heading home, we walked through MW reception area, crossed the street and a semi circular crossing path [I think it it 'at' instead of 'and'] back to the apartment [again, it makes more sense 'around the apartment'], where we left the children sleeping and a bit later we did it again we put the children to sleep and a bit later we did the same. On our way home I don't recall hearing or seeing anybody. When I crossed the road on the outside of the reception I remember that there were parked cars, I remember taking some time verifying if I could do it [cross the street] because there were cars parked on my left and I was carrying Isabella in my arms. They were aproximately 6 meters away from me and some (inaudible) meters from the back of Gerry's apartment, I can't recall anything about these cars, it is normal to see cars parked in that area and the next day they weren't there anymore. My wife Carolyn next day mentioned to me that she vaguely recalled having heard someone calling 'Madeleine, Madeleine', this after we crossed the road on the outside of MW reception and before we entered our home. She doesn't remember where did the sound come from or if it was in a distressed mood, she didn't pay any attention and only remembered it the next day when we knew about Madeleine's disappearance'. Well, before we move to next part, do you remember when did you leave?"

"Answer -- Hummm... vaguelly, I think it is similar what they said in their report, the same, the actual leaving of the Restaurant, the way home, the looking to my left to verify that the road was free and heard nothing, humm... Carolyn remembers vaguelly hearing 'Madeleine, Madeleine'and that was all until next morning when I heard [watched] the television.

4078 -- Yes that's where you say you watched GMTV.

Answer -- Yes.

4078 -- I think a 3 year old child was reported and thought who could she be and remembered that Kate and Gerry where from Leicester and assumed it should be one of theirs as you knew that they had small children?

Answer -- Ah.

4078 -- And then you left your apartment to see if you could help in any way, and as you said before everything was quiet and there was nobody around.
You added 'I walked towards MW reception and met two surfers friends of Gerry, who told me that Madeleine had been abducted the previous evening, I asked him [them, I think] if I could do anything to help and I think that they were waiting for news from the Portuguese Police. We walked to the supermarket and ended stopping at the reception open 24 hours where one of the men tried to speak to an employee, but the communication became complicated as the employee didn't speak English and the man didn't speak Portuguese. We went back to MW reception where I asked that if they found something where I could help to let me know, and came back to my apartment through the same path as the night before. When I was arriving at my apartment I heard a male voice coming from the adjoining garden.' That would be Murat's voice, right?

Answer -- Yes.

4078 -- That garden is on the other side of the footpath of my apartment block and has a wire fence of 1,80 meters high. The garden is thick and it wasn't possible to see into it there also was a footpath alongside the garden without wall which was the 'shortcut' from our apartment to the Millenium Restaurant. I never distinctly saw the garden interior didn't know who was the owner of the house and never saw anybody in the garden or the house, or even leaving home until I heard that voice calling me. Then the voice called you over the fence. 'What is going on, what happened', I answered that a 3 year old child had disappeared, he said, 'I'll go around and talk to you', and so he did, he went around, came to me, and said 'I've been living here for 14 years, I speak fluently Portuguese and can help to translate' and we introduced to each other [ is it correctly translated?] I knew him as Robert and it was the first time I saw this man. Robert mentioned that he had a daughter in Norfolk who was the same age as Madeleine, so he could understand what he was going through. We went back to Gerry's apartment through the same way I had just made and I explained that Robert spoke Portuguese fluently, he told Gerry that it was important to find someone who spoke the language so that nothing was lost during the translation.' So that is how Robert Murat was intoduced as an interpreter.

Answer -- Yes.

4078 -- Then he left and told us that Gerry was unhappy about the way the process was being developped and went to see a man called John Hill.

Answer -- Yes.

******************

At this point, at page 42, Carpenter relates how Murat involved himself actively in the searchs, first at the OC and then with Carpenter near the beach where they met some policemen with dogs. That is when Murat introduces himself to them as a person able to translate and somehow even refers 'Well, I didn't exactly 'offer' my services, I just 'bumped' onto this guy.' Carpenter seems a bit sad/annoyed with this and reinforces that it was through him that Murat was intoduced as an interpreter.

A very interesting bit relates to an unknown guy who participated in the searches in the evening with a torch, in his 50s, and that was nowhere to be seen afterwards. This is a Carpenter's quotation of Neil and Raj, who had a very uncomfortable feeling about the man. He presented himself as living in the area and having bought a block of apartments recently. This man wasn't investigated by the Police. There is no relation established between this man and Murat. (page 44).

***************
(page 45)

4078 -- And you spoke about this with Robert?

Answer -- Ah ah

4078 -- On Saturday morning, that is the 5th May, you spoke to a BBC reporter.

Answer -- Yes.

4078 -- You told him that some reporters were being unfair and inaccurate because they were transmitting the situation of a missing child instead that of an abducted one.

Answer -- Yes.

4078 -- And go on saying that you spoke to Robert that day about how unhappy the Portuguese Police was about the non understanding way the British press was treating them.

Answer -- That, that is what he told me. What he explained to me.

4078 -- Yes.

Answer -- Yes.

4078 -- Yes, you met Gerry at the swimming pool area Saturday afternoon, he told you that the 50years old man lead had not been porsued, that Leicester police was on its way and gave you his phone contact and you came back to England that night.

Answer -- Yes.

*********************

(page 34)

4078 -- OK, just to introduce myself, I'm DC Sophie FERGUSON. I'm with the Main Criminal Unit of the Leicestershire Police and we obviously have been working on the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, in order to assist the Portuguese, and the reason that brings us here today is because the Portuguses asked us to ask some questions to some of the witnesses.

Answer -- Right.

4078 -- And also Gerry and Kate have the right to ask questions to some witnesses, so some of the questionings include questions suggested by them.

Answer -- OK.

******************

EUREEKA! We are getting somewhere, thanks to HB's perception and Marias translation.


Carpenter said that they crossed the road and took the semi-circular path** around the building. This sounds like a path that takes them across 'sadies watchers little car park' (grey on the images) into the alleyway 'Aldemento The Ocean Club'. It passes where i think MF's appartment was.

When they got to the alleyway, my bet is that they continued the semi-circular route they described. That would take them across (or around) the circular lawn (image 2).

Now from the description of adjoining RM's gardens, it seems they must have been staying in the appartment on the far side of the circular lawn and entered it by a rear door. [RM's garden is the dark green area at the top RH corner of image 2]

'Madeleine Madeleine' was heard whispered somewhere along this route.


**In order to follow the apparent route home of this path, suggest you refer to 'A Complete Review of Maddies abduction'. Page 21, Images 2, 3 and 4. I suggest you print the images off for ease of use.





This doesn't actually prove anything about whether Bundleman was at MF's, or at RM's - not at all - but it does verify that JT was telling the truth when she claimed she saw Bundleman cross that road.

It is also an indicator that my theoretical route mapped out on P13 and shown in green on p21, image 4, is probably correct in essence



So Amaral had two independent sets of evidence indicating that Madeleine was taken in that direction.
So ........Why did he insist on disbelieving JT and insist that Bundleman went the opposite way?............ Hmm

Sorry, I've not lost touch with this and am reading with interest. Will return for more in depth comment. Many thanks to Maria particularly for proper translation.

I believe in Mrs. Tanner´s description. In my opinion, the man she saw was the man carrying sweet Madeleine McCann.

Just reread Sadie's comment.

Sadie, I am not digesting this. How does this prove anything? I take it this is to do with hearing "Madeleine' being spoken/called. But when I read the Carpenter translation, it seemed as thought this was in connection with the search and I thought it was implying that the timing was wrong.

Can you spell it out for me, because I am clearly missing something? Which bit of the post is proving the route taken by Bundleman?

I must be having a blonde moment (apologies to any of you that are (or were) blonde).

Is it just me or does there seem to be a particular interest in Murat here ?

Be interested to know whether Murat refers to Carpenter in his statement!. One would imagine he would, after all he has always maintained he didnt know about Madeleines disappearance until the next morning! So effectively he only knew about Madeleines abduction after speaking with a Mr. Carpenter!

Diane, having reread it, I see that you are quite right. I am wrong; where I got the 'whispered' bit from I haven't a clue.

I've made a major Boo-boo. My Eureeka moment has fizzled away!

My apologies to everyone.

Sadie

Its OK, I just couldnt see it.

I dont think Maria is saying 'Madeleine' was whispered. This was from the other interpretation. The wife heard 'Madeleine' faintly, which could be from a way off. The timing is important because if I remember rightly, the timing doesnt tie up with JT sighting. I think it was before that.

Tinks

Yes, this does concern Murat. I think in two ways. One is that the Carpenters were staying in proximity to Murat. If the Carpenters did hear Madeleines name, and it was before the JT sighting then it means either that JT didnt see anyone, or it had nothing to do with Madeleine, or that someone near to the Carpenters was discussing Madeleine, and it would also imply her name was known. It is hard to know if this hearing the name Madeleine was accurate or not, or whether the timing is accurate.

Second, Carpenter was not comfortable with Murat having a different story about how he(murat) got involved in the search for Madeleine. According to Carpenter, it was the next morning and he took Murat to help. Not Murat's story. Add all this to the witnesses that insist that Murat was actually around on the night Madeleine disappeared, and it is all a bit strange.

Maria, can you confirm the timing of the Carpenter's hearing 'Madeleine', and that it was while they were walking home, and not after the got home (which would make it during the search).

I tend to favour that the Mrs Carpenter did hear Madeleine's name called but it was during the search, not before.

Thank you Maria, this is excellent.

In my opinion, it was when they collected their children and were heading home, not during the searches :'...heard someone calling 'Madeleine, Madeleine', this after we crossed the road on the outside of MW reception and before we entered our home...'

The timings give also food for thought, I believe, but I have no time to elaborate on it right now.

maria wrote:Got it. I'm starting reading it, will try to answer your questions.

To start with, there is an earlier report which can be in the 'Processo' files as they refer to it and Carpenter has it as a 'memory aid' during this questioning.

Now on page 40 [I'll check later, this is a quote of the previous report, made much earlier, I think]

4078 -- "...Somewhere between nine fifteen and nine thirty we left Tapas heading home, we walked through MW reception area, crossed the street and a semi circular crossing path [I think it it 'at' instead of 'and'] back to the apartment [again, it makes more sense 'around the apartment'], where we left the children sleeping and a bit later we did it again.

******************

Have just googled "time gerry mccann talking to Jez wilkins?" and it has taken me to a 3A's thread, which by coincidence is currently discussing the time that JT (and other tapas) left the table for checking duties. 3A's thread "Jez, Gerry and Jane" page 9. There is a load of nonsense there, but some information about times, which is probably correct.

Time that Gerry left the Tapas were given by different Tapas witnesses as 9.00, 9.10, and 9.15pm. Jane was said to leave at almost the same time, but I think that we can add 5 minutes on because Gerry went home, checked the children, went to the loo, (washed hands?) before going out and bumping into Jez - so Jane left between 9.05 and 9.20pm. If we add 2 minutes for her walk, she saw Bundleman between 9.07 and 9.22pm. The Carpenters estimated their first trip home as being [QUOTE]"...Somewhere between nine fifteen and nine thirty we left Tapas heading home,[QUOTE]

This timing fits very well the timing given by Stephen Carpenter for their first trip home. Now what we need to know is, did they hear Madeleines name on their first trip - because if they did it was probably Bundlemans voice; or did they hear Madeleines name on their second trip home - in which case it would be searchers calling for her.

Maria, please can you help? Could the Portuguese word/s mean "whispered /spoken in a hushed voice" or does it only translate as " vaguelly hearing" or "calling"?

I know that in the English language we have many more subtle meanings for words than do most other languages. Could this be the case here? When you think about it, "vaguelly hearing" could it mean Mrs Carpenter was hearing a 'hushed/whispered' voice. If it only translates as hearing someone 'calling', then i think it is likely that their second trip home was after the discovery that Madeleine was missing, and she was hearing searchers calling.

Would be good to know, because it would be pleasing to verify that JT had told the truth - and it would be another part of the puzzle in place.

I think if it was searchers calling for Madeleine, I would imagine they would have been quite vocal but Mr. Carpenter says he didnt hear or see anything.

I missed 2 important points.

1 The Carpenters had children asleep in their apartment. SO it was more than just the McCanns and their friends who did this.
2 That they went from the Tapas bar to their apartment twice that night with the second trip being around the time that Kate discovered Madeleine was missing. So it fits that they heard Madeleine's name when Kate or Gerry or one of their friends were calling her name.

The previous discussion I had seen on another forum only talked about 1 trip, and this was used to prove that the time line was wrong.

I cant find the translation that was used for that now, I went and had a look but I have no idea where it was originally. I wonder if that translation was wrong, or if it was just interpreted wrong. So this testimony does not disprove the timeline at all.

And it does pose a few questions regarding Murat.

Just want to highlight on the Other Blogs thread, a post I made concerning the thoughts of Eyes for Lies on Murat. It is very interesting and when you read this, and the Carpenter testimony together, it poses more questions about Murat.

I had written a post by Diane made me loose it... My fault really, didn't notice there was another msg .

I believe both situations are credible, either 21ish Mrs Carpenter heard someone trying to keep Madeleine quietly asleep wihspering her name OR much later, when the Carpenters were fast asleep, Mrs Carpenter 'heard' someone calling during the searches and then, next day, when she learned the case, she 'misplaced' that memory back to 21ish.

Now, I sincerely hope to have more free time by the end of the week. These files are extremely rich in testimonies, worth to translate and read. Really. What a pitty that I am alone!

Hi daineh

Since posting my previous message, I have been on to PFA and come across a post by HB (at 7.39pm tonight) there, which throws a different light on to the whole scenario.

Now of all the posters that I have come across, I have found HB to be very astute and accurate. He is saying that he thought that the Carpenters came home at 20.00 hours (8.00pm). He is not sure about that, but if he is correct, then the second/final time they returned would have been at (9.15 - 9.30pm).

Lets give it a while and see if anyone can confirm his thoughts...........Hmmm, it's getting exciting!


www.pfa2.com/forum and open up the Stephen Carpenter thread

maria wrote:Got it. I'm starting reading it, will try to answer your questions.

To start with, there is an earlier report which can be in the 'Processo' files as they refer to it and Carpenter has it as a 'memory aid' during this questioning.

Now on page 40 [I'll check later, this is a quote of the previous report, made much earlier, I think]

4078 -- "... My wife Carolyn next day mentioned to me that she vaguely recalled having heard someone calling 'Madeleine, Madeleine', this after we crossed the road on the outside of MW reception and before we entered our home. She doesn't remember where did the sound come from or if it was in a distressed mood, she didn't pay any attention and only remembered it the next day when we knew about Madeleine's disappearance'. Well, before we move to next part, do you remember when did you leave?"

"Answer -- Hummm... vaguelly, I think it is similar what they said in their report, the same, the actual leaving of the Restaurant, the way home, the looking to my left to verify that the road was free and heard nothing, humm... Carolyn remembers vaguelly hearing 'Madeleine, Madeleine'and that was all until next morning when I heard [watched] the television.


******************

Yes, but Maria, it says she recalled the "Madeleine Madeleine" after they had crossed the road on the outside of MW reception and before they entered their home, so it's pointing towards it being at 9.15 - 9.30pm, IMO, if this, indeed, is their second and final trip home from the tapas

What do you and Dianeh and Tinks think?

THis is the problem.

From an earlier post by Maria.

4078 -- "...Somewhere between nine fifteen and nine thirty we left Tapas heading home, we walked through MW reception area, crossed the street and a semi circular crossing path [I think it it 'at' instead of 'and'] back to the apartment [again, it makes more sense 'around the apartment'], where we left the children sleeping and a bit later we did it again. On our way home I don't recall hearing or seeing anybody. When I crossed the road on the outside of the reception I remember that there were parked cars, I remember taking some time verifying if I could do it [cross the street] because there were cars parked on my left and I was carrying Isabella in my arms.

Is this saying that the Carpenters took the children home at 9:15 and then went back out again? Because it seems to be saying just that.

If so, then is the part about hearing Madeleine from the first or second trip, because the interview does not show this. To be honest, it reads as though it were just one trip at 9:15 ish. But then what does it meant that they left eh children sleeping and a bit later we did it again. This means they went back out. But on their way home, he had Isabella in his arms (um, this must be the first trip home). So this must have been at 9:15. Did they or did they not go out again, to get a later possible time for hearing 'Madeleine'. Common sense tells me that they were out again, and heard 'Madeleine' being called when people started searching, but this is not clear from the testimony. We think they were out twice but only talk about coming home once (or else both trips home are confused together).

Dianeh, I think you missed my earlier post at 11.14pm about HB (in his post on PFA") thinking that he remembers The Carpenters going back home for the first time at 8pm.

However, I agree with you in your last statement. I realised that there were two trips home, but it hadn't registered that the one mentioned was the first trip home. From what HB had been thinking I was wondering if that was the final trip home.

If HB is correct in his memory, it seems that there must have been three trips home.


But, you know what is worrying me? If they had started searching for Madeleine, I would have expected lots of voices calling - not just one.......Hmmm


The complexity of the British Language with its multiple nuances (is that the right word?) make it impossible for Maria to know whether it was whispered, murmured, called etc. - So unhappily, we are still no further forward.

maria wrote:I had written a post by Diane made me loose it... My fault really, didn't notice there was another msg .

I believe both situations are credible, either 21ish Mrs Carpenter heard someone trying to keep Madeleine quietly asleep wihspering her name OR much later, when the Carpenters were fast asleep, Mrs Carpenter 'heard' someone calling during the searches and then, next day, when she learned the case, she 'misplaced' that memory back to 21ish.

Now, I sincerely hope to have more free time by the end of the week. These files are extremely rich in testimonies, worth to translate and read. Really. What a pitty that I am alone!

Yes it is a big task Maria and your time is greatly appreciated.....Wish I spoke Portuguese...

I believe that the idea of the two times the Carpenters 'went home' or 'left Tapas' or anything around it on the evening of the 3rd May is based on a previous sentence on the statement. In other words, they only went to Tapas twice during their whole holiday period, the second time being on the third May. It is not implied in any way, I think, that they went home once, left and came back again.

On page 38 Carpenter makes a sketch showing how close they were to the McCanns' and Murat's places and the fences, etc. On page 39 (so, before the beginning of my first translation):

Answer - The shrubs were all around here, we were on the ground floor, everything was open here, so now I think (inaudible) you know, that's the idea that hummm... why I mentioned during the questioning, that there is a launderette van that used to park and other things.

4078 - Mmm, yes...

Answer - But humm... nothing out of normal that anyone wouldn't do on a holiday situation, the only thing is to think about our proximity to Murat's property.

4078 - Yes, I understand, yes. Much of this is on the...

Answer - Preceeding.

4078 - Yes. When you went to Tapas bar and whom you saw there now speaking of that thursday the third of May, let's analyse this in more detail as it obviously will be more relevant. 'The second time I entered the Tapas bar was on thursday the third of May' that ended up being the day when Madeleine disappeared.

Answer - Ah ah

4078 - We arrived around seven o'clock because we had the children with us and I saw a man with three children sitting at the table next to ours.

Answer - Yes.

4078 - He was going to catch a plane next day to Switzerland, as the children's mother lives there, I never met him before but he ended up joining us for a coffee he was a MW tourist. Another couple, whose name I don't remember, sat at the opposite table. The other man was sitting on the outside having a drink while they waited for the 'takeaway', I spoke to them briefly, I hadn't noticed that the Tapas Bar had a 'takeaway' service. At this point I didn't know their names yet. Around eight thirty, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximatelly ten people were already

(page 40)

sitting at the table, so close to us that it was possible to talk, we spoke about tennis among other things, I vaguelly recall Gerry , Kate and other people in the group leaving the table at (inaudible) intervals, I believe to check on the children, but I don't remember the frequency or how many times people left the group to check the children.
We didn't speak about the system that they had to check on the children or the fact that they left them alone in the apartments it was only on a later state [statement?] when I heard on the news, that I knew that they had left the children alone in the apartment and used to check regularly if they were ok.

here it ties up with my first translation

maria[b][color=darkred] wrote:I believe that the idea of the two times the Carpenters 'went home' or 'left Tapas' or anything around it on the evening of the 3rd May is based on a previous sentence on the statement. In other words, they only went to Tapas twice during their whole holiday period, the second time being on the third May. It is not implied in any way, I think, that they went home once, left and came back gain[/color][/b].

Thanks Maria, that's brilliant. So this statement helps support JT's statement that she saw Bundleman taking Madeleine in that (Easterly) direction. It does NOT support Amarals 'assertions' that Bundleman went in a Westerly direction.

So Amaral chose to believe his ideas of how Bundleman reached the Smiths against two INDEPENDENT witness reports..........................Hmmm, wonder why he wanted to push his own (unsupported?) ideas against the evidence?

Was he trying to protect someone?........ No, no; we all know that no senior Police Officer would do that!......... Seems he just made a mistake, some bad judgement maybe....... Of course, we dont know all the facts, so it is too early to judge why he should have made the decision to disallow JT's (and the Carpenters, by the sound of things) sighting evidence.

You know, had he not disallowed JT's evidence, the McCanns would not have had to suffer all the dreadful flak that they have taken. Also Madeleine may have been found.







Everything that I have talked about has been freely available on the internet for months, or is from Stephen Carpenters statement in the Cartas Rogatorias (file 3) pages 31-36. I have just been trying to make sense of these things and I accuse nobody of any deliberate wrong doings, but I question, question, question - without questioning we will never get to the bottom of this heinious crime.

Maria

Thank you very much for clearing it up. So one trip only that night and the children not left alone at all.

So yes, it does appear that the timing co-incides with JT's sighting of 9-9:15.

But the mind boggles as to why the abductor would be calling/saying Madeleine's name, unless he/she knew that her name was Madeleine.

THat is entirely possible, and it means that it wasnt a chance abduction, but a planned one. It also does have implications for someone who had access to the children being involved, I am open to who this would be, but do favour staff at the resort. They would know the name.

The thing is too, the context of the name, ie whispered, called, or merely spoken. It didnt register as being a distressed call, so it is unlikely to have been during the search. Was the abductor talking to Madeleine, and that is what Mrs Carpenter heard? This does support Sadie's theory of the direction that the abductor went.

And then where did the abductor go between then and when the Smith sighting occurred? I doubt he/she was wandering the street for this time.

Once again thank you Maria, and you too Sadie for your logical conlcusions.

I've always been betwixed and between as to whether Madeleine was drugged or whether she knew her abductor. They are the only 2 explanations I can come up with as to why she didn't create and scream the place down.

If Mrs Carpenter did indeed hear Madeleines name, then I would have a tendancy to lean towards Madeleine being in the care of someone that she knew/was befriended by. I have always been of the opinion someone who works within the MW resort is involved.