What are we?

I have been pondering today on my part in, and the part I have played in this case, looking now at the position I am in. Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere, I remain a steadfast supporter of the McCann's search for Madeleine, and I will remain at their side till the end, but I am wondering about who I was, and who I have become. This has been prompted by the post below, by Supertroll, on Chaos Engine.

Comment from Supertroll
Written by Chaos Engine
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 20:50
In Reply to Addressing the Balance - published for non-members to read. The comment is concise and gives insight into the forum control that is endemic



Excellent article. No one could have put that better. It is good to see that the Madeleine Foundation has lost all its credibility and will never be able to function properly again save for the support of the odd deluded nutter.

I also like the fact that you choose to remain objective and not judge people because of their beliefs. It is hard to find this point of view because this case has made people become so polarised. I always tried to remain objective as well, but at times it proved to be the hardest thing. The problem does not only fall on the anti's. There are also pro sites which are full of hate.

Many of the pitchforkers have been manipulated by peer pressure and the pack mentality that is encouraged by many of the site moderators. Their initial views and feelings get shaped over time to fit in whatever site they are posting in. It is like a cult, and in the case of the Madeleine Foundation, members went from posting opinions, signing petitions and paying into...someone's little saving stash/nice holiday to being involved in criminal activity.

Many site moderators are preoccupied about site traffic, keeping posters on their side, how other sites are doing and how they are reacting about them. In many cases the whole argument centres about these people's egos, having to be right in the eyes of everyone and needing their fellow posters to agree with them (narcissism) rather than wanting to find the truth. Madeleine McCann's plight many times gets lost along the way. I believe that for many posters she is the excuse for posting but not the real reason

I believe some pro sites can do even more damage to the cause of missing Madeleine by failing to control their posters. The antis hold on to lies and half truths for their hate campaign, and this will inevitably be found out when the truth comes out leading to the loonies being exposed and dismissed. On the other hand the pitchforking pros on the other side hold on to the truth and often will distort it to suit their own needs as well as use it as a stick to carry on with their own hate campaigns. By doing this the pros could end up damaging the case by association; an example would be using the incompetent Portuguese investigation as an excuse to post screaming racist posts against the entire Portuguese nation. This is hardly going to endear the Portuguese people to the McCanns' plight. If the McCann's need help from anyone surely it is from the very countrymen/women from the place where ...Madeleine was taken.

When my blog was open to all I got comments from both sides of the fence, unfortunately there was bullying and attacks as well which I admit were not always handled well. It was a steep learning curve and eventually I decided I did not want to be part of this any more. Many antis are sick but not all are bad, many pros are lovely people but some are a disgrace. Unfortunately some of the worst bullying I saw came from pros bullying other pros. So much for rallying people together and trying to promote awareness for a missing child.


I have to wonder, are WE a hate site? Am I part of a hate site? For sure, we consider the other side, places like the 3a's, past and present, the MissingMadeleine site and of course the Madeleine foundations as hate sites, where the posters try and outdo each other with the poison, venom and vitriol that they can hurl at the two long suffering McCann's. But then, are we guilty of reciprocating that same venom right back at bennett, amaral, stevo, bren? Are we become that which we despise?

Hallo Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle.

There is no doubt that they deserve it. We know with absolute certanty that there is not one credible scrap of evidence to implicate Kate and Gerry in Madeleine's disapearance, and yet the members of those sites insist in carrying out their vile campaigns against them. Yes, they deserve our hatred, but does that make it right to behave just like them? I can't deny I have often been right at the front, venting my own anger and hatred, I am as guilty as anyone. Of course, in my defense, I could say that the only thing I have in common with bennett is that we are both well known by our real identities. As a result I have been lambasted, pilloried, attacked, ridiculed, and in several cases libeled. I have been accused of having a nervous breakdown, causing an innocent man's suicide, of being investigated by Essex police and having my daughters sexual abuse by a local paedo held up as an object of ammusement and scorn. I could be excused for acting the way I have done. But, I ask myself, is it right? I am a far, far better man than bennett, and infinatly more better than drachensachen, so why should I stoop to their level?

In real life, I am very happy-go-lucky, laid back, sometimes a little shy. I have many friends, and, without wishing to sound arrogant, I think I am well liked, and have no known enemies. Yet, when behind the keyboard, I can become something else, something that now, looking back, I am not so proud of. Hate is a powerful emotion. This whole case is, in fact, a very emotional one. A beautiful little girl has been snatched from the bosom of her loving family, the investigation into her abduction was a total and utter disgrace, and all a tiny minority wants to do is block the parents search for their daughter. Yes, I do have some hatred in my heart. But, if I let it continue to reside there I am in danger of allowing it to consume me, to take over my real life, colouring my outlook, my day to day routiene.

I therefore intend to do my best to reign in some of my feelings, and instead try to be more objective. If I read a stupid or ill-thought out comment from one of the true hate sites, I will attack it, but using logic and truth, rather than venom and bile. It will not be easy. I am by nature an emotional person, but I know I am on the right side of this case. We, as members of this forum, have always held the moral high ground, but I think we need to be SEEN to be better than the other side, better in thought, word and deed. I am proud to support the McCann's, and I want nothing more than for them to be proud of me. How about we all try to do the same, let's try to curb our first instinct, to lash out at Madeleine's enemies with barbed toungues, but instead demolish their foolish fantasies and lies with nothing more than the truth.

I'm not sure I have quite explained what I mean, and this is by no means aimed at anyone in particular, so please, no paranoia!

OK, sermon over, the reverend Vee is finished preaching, I just wanted to get that off my chest!

Vee, the big difference between the pro's and the ant's is that legal action has been taken against the anti's, and there seems to be no sign of this abating. This site does indulge in name calling but mainly we are here to refute what is said, and to seek legal means to get the libel and false accusations against the McCanns stopped, and to provide any assistance we can to the search for Madeleine. And if this means highlighting the problems within the PJ and the investigation, then so be it.

There are other sites that exist just to harrass the anti's, but even those sites are within the bounds of the law.

Vee, the very fact that you have taken a look at yourself and your motives and actions puts you in a completely different class from the anti's.

As for Supertroll's post, she makes some good points, and there are indeed some so called pro's that are as rabid as a mad dog. Some of those have posted here, and thankfully left and went harrassing others elsewhere. The thing with Supertroll's posts is that when talking about some pro's and some pro sites, that it is by extension applied to people who read it to all pro sites. I dont know who Supertroll is referring to, but I very much doubt it is all pro's and all pro sites.

Thank you Dianeh, I think sometimes it is good to sit back and take a look at where we are. This IS a good site, one of the best in fact. I have always been proud of my association with, and membership off J4, and I hope to remain a member of it for however long it takes to succeed in our mission to support the search for Madeleine. I hope my rambling wasn't taken as criticism, it was rather just a look inwards, into myself, a bit of cathartic soul searching if you like. It was just a couple of things in Supertrolls words that made me think. I just want to be the best supporter I can be, and looking back, at myself, I can see a little room for improvement.

I'll keep this short, Supertroll is her own person and can think and feel what is right and she can do what is right for her, she did when she ran her blog.
As always she makes some good and valid points, but she also comes across as sanctimonious and pompous.
She said she was bowing out from the blogging scene, but has never been far away, that to me is hypocritical.
Now we get this post from her complete with what she thinks and feels about other people, well that is up to her, she can do what she wants, but no one is going to distract me from doing what I think is right for Madeleine and the support I will continue to give her parents.

So St can just get on with her life and I will get on with mine.

I just caught it on Tony's hounding blog. I have to admit to not knowing too much about Supertroll, so I can't say too much else about her or her style. But you're right, the anti's are in total meltdown, all their heroes are turning to zeroes in front of their very eyes.

Vee, they were big fat zeros to start with, they just couldn't see it.

Another thing, if we were not around, who would be supporting Kate and Gerry and deflecting some of the utter filth thrown their way? at least we are around and the McCanns are aware of us and know we support them, so they know they have many shining beacons in what can be a pretty dark internet at times.

I have to say: I support the couple in their quest, in everything they do, everything they decide to do in their quest I agree, it´s their daughter and they know what is the best for her, they are parents (I´m not a parent, but if I were parent in a situation like this, I would do exactly the same as the couple). Sweet Madeleine made the best of me comes to the surface, in a way that I do everything to help find her. Also made me become more aware of this huge problem, which made me to do something for all other cases. Although sweet Madeleine is my top priority, I decided to spread other cases. This was started immediately from the first second of her abduction. I´m right behind the couple, doing everything I can to help find her, to help bring her safe to her home, until sweet Madeleine is found, until her safe return. Better yet, if in the middle of all this, I can do the same / something for all missing children / people worldwide, even better.

Me...........I am behind the McCanns search for Madeleine 100%.

I cannot help but get involved when people post bullsh@t and say it is FACT.
I cannot help giving back to these Bstrds when I read about their opinions and bullsh@t they spread about the McCann family.
Sometimes the "antis" need to be dealt with on their own nasty level..........just my opinion.

Catkins wrote:Me...........I am behind the McCanns search for Madeleine 100%.

I cannot help but get involved when people post bullsh@t and say it is FACT.
I cannot help giving back to these Bstrds when I read about their opinions and bullsh@t they spread about the McCann family.
Sometimes the "antis" need to be dealt with on their own nasty level..........just my opinion.

Hi Cat

It's an opinion I agree with too! For quiet a long while we ignored the 3 a's etc,in the hope that would go away, well that didnotwork,they got bigger,braver and even more vile, until they were actually undermining the search and harming the search for Madeleine and her parents got pushed into a position where they could notsay anything either way, because they were lambasted whatever they said or did,they could do nothing.
The Debbie Butler stalking incident happened because nothing was done about Tony Bennett and Debbie Butler, they got into a position were they thought they were untouchable and if it were not for a dilligent few on the internet forever combing,taking note and saving information and making sure it was seen by the correct people,then they would still be getting away with it. They are imploding today because of an extreme amount of pressure applied to them.

When we read posters openly boasting that they are going to go and firebomb the McCanns house and openly threatening the McCanns relatives and their children and the policeare doing nothing,what are we supposed to do,turn the other cheek and hoe for the best? Sorry,not me,I do not work like that, staying within the confines of the law, I will work out what todo and do it.
To each their own is what I say, if people would rather not get involved then that is up to them, but while they do nothing and sit behind their screens doing nothing,why do they have to try and take the moral highground and try to stop others being pro-active?

The streets have many people on them who think they are above the law and think the world owes them something, and they often terrorise others in their own homes,this was born because good people did nothing!

Agree..........

I don´t let myself be intimidated by any of the 3A´s. Like Rosiepops wisely posted here, turn the other cheek? No, thanks. I do not work like that.

A lot of what ST says rings true .. but not this paragraph below.
This is hyperbole .. bullying has taken place between Pro's, but nothing of the order that can be compared to what Anti's have done to each other, and to Pro's. There is a clear moral divide between Anti's and Pro's and that should never be forgotten. We are on the side of the Angels in this, and because some Pro's went OTT (you-know-who) .. they are the exceptions that prove the rule. Pro's are the ones who have delved tirelessly into the facts and stuck with the facts. I don't believe there are any genuine Anti's left.. or indeed fencies .. just pitchforking lunatics. After 2 1/2 years and a mass of information revealed; no-one of good conscience can insist there was no abduction & the McCann's are guilty of something. And those people who can't let go of the "they left them alone" argument .. must realise, surely at long last, that there is nothing to be gained for Madeleine by hanging on grimly to that fact. It's not helping Madeleine, and it never did.
Vee .. don't beat up on yourself, you are one of the rightful warriors.
...

"Unfortunately some of the worst bullying I saw came from pros bullying other pros. So much for rallying people together and trying to promote awareness for a missing child".

... this is gross exaggeration for effect.

Rosiepops wrote:I'll keep this short, Supertroll is her own person and can think and feel what is right and she can do what is right for her, she did when she ran her blog.
As always she makes some good and valid points, but she also comes across as sanctimonious and pompous.
She said she was bowing out from the blogging scene, but has never been far away, that to me is hypocritical.
Now we get this post from her complete with what she thinks and feels about other people, well that is up to her, she can do what she wants, but no one is going to distract me from doing what I think is right for Madeleine and the support I will continue to give her parents.

So St can just get on with her life and I will get on with mine.

Sorry but I honestly couldn't care less what anyone else says or thinks about this forum or our blog.

We all try and hope we are doing the right thing for Madeleine and her family, noone else.

OK, been having some further thoughts today! I need to clarify, I wasn't questioning the reasons for the existance of this forum, or the actions we take. Far from it, this forum, and it's members, have been stalwarts in the search for Madeleine, and have done a huge amount of good in shining a light into the murkier recesses of the internet, exposing the vile nature of the likes of bennett and others. I am proud of the work we have done, and continue to do. I was simply musing on some of the posts I have made, wondering if, by being as agressive as the anti's, if I was in fact as bad as them.Today, however, I am wondering if I CAN change, or even if I should. Fight fire with fire, they say. I am what I am, and I am not the sort to turn my back on injustice, cruelty or blatant liars. So, if i get a bit agressive from time to time, maybe that's unavoidable. It's not nice, but that's me. I WILL try to curb it, but I will still be here, fighting for the truth, to see Madeleine brought safely home, and see that the REAL criminals in this case, the abductor/s, brought to justice, along with all those who would try to obstruct that justice, and by tht I mean amaral, bennett, stevo, bren, amberslut and so on.

For my part, I think Supertroll as referring to an old friend/foe of ours who was an pro, and a rabid one at that. And she did bully, without mercy those who disageed with her. Now this poster shall remain nameless, but if she reads this she should know that we have always suspected that she did not disappear, but simply started posting again as a new persona. As that persona also caused trouble and bullied people, on various forums. Supertroll was attacked over and over by this person, who tried to convince everyone that Supertroll was Viv. Umm, Viv may be many things, but Supertroll, she is not.

And on Viv. What Rosie says about ignoring the anti's was true. We had some success with that by ignoring Viv and her filthy blog, and it worked, the blog wound down, and became completely irrelevant. But it didnt work, the whole lot of them moved to 3A's, making for a bigger pool of ignorant pitchforkers than they had before. The only way to fight them is to highlight what they are saying, and what they are doing, until there is enough evidence for legal action. And that is what has happened.

And Rosie, I completely agree that had libel action been taken earlier, that the leaflet drop etc would never have happened.

Hi Vee,

No I do not believe we are becoming like those that we despise. We have not lost our empathy or compassion. Yes I/we have traded insults but I have never once seen anyone from our site cross that line and make vicious threats.

I have not stalked or harrassed anyone and neither would I. Neither would I take pleasure from making someones life hell.

So no I do not think I am anything close to becoming like those that I despise.

I judge myself by my own conscience and my conscience is clear. If I am wrong about Kate and Gerry it will be for the right reasons and I will defend anyones right to be innocent until proved otherwise.

I think it's an excellent post and if anyone has been making racist posts then they deserve the criticism.

What I will add though is that in the JonBenet Ramsey case (with which I am infinitely more familiar), there were a few proven cases of pro_Ramseys who stirred up controversy by posing as antis and vice versa. They made extreme posts in an effort to smear the other side's "reputation". I exposed one of these. It was a stanch Ramsey supporter who joined a discussion form under a different hat and proceeded to make the most vile anti_Ramsey posts imaginable. They were so vile, that they actually shocked the bona-fide anti_Ramseys! I suspected this particular poster and asked him outright if he'd done it. He denied it for a long time until I uncovered a "clue" which backed him into a corner and to the horror of his pro_Ramsey buddies, he finally admitted he'd done it but then said he'd done it as a joke. Maybe it was a joke, but the laugh was on him.

Now I don't know if this kind of thing goes on in the McCann case because I haven't followed the discussions to anything like the extent I did with the Ramsey case, but I know for a fact that people play games.

They also seem to use the term "pro" loosely...Bennett's buddies are saying that it was pro forums who outed Kizzy as the auditor and used her name....JATYK is not a pro board, they are devoted to exposing the game playing and lies among the MF and the 3As...and it was Bennett himself who outed them.

It's folly to think the nastier and crazier pros will negatively harm the case...there just aren't that many of them to make a large influence, IMHO.